Gentlemen,
Here is the situation. I have received a semi custom rifle from a gunsmith. Rem action, custom barrel, express sights...bla bla bla.

Here is the problem. The rifle won't eject reliably, the front ramp sight's weld broke and fell off, and the best it shoots is 2" groups with every handload I have tried (6 powders, 2 bullets, 3 O.A.L.'s).

Now, at what point is enough enough? I know this post is short on details but at what point should I stop giving the gunsmith the benefit of the doubt? I understand that gunsmithing is truly an art and good things take time, but...

Please. Other gunsmiths out there. What do you think??
Should I expect better out of a 3000 dollar rifle?

Have you sent it back? Have you talked it over with the smith involved? Too many questions for one answer.

The gun should eject fired cases reliably. Front sights should not fall off. A $3000.00 rifle should be able to group to at least 1 MOA. I don't know what you, or, the gunsmith have done to attempt to rectify these items but if it hasn't happened, or, isn't in the process of being addressed, then it's time for something.

Talk with the guy, most of us are honest and want our clients to be happy. For three grand you deserve better but you need to give him the opertunity to correct anything thats wrong.

The bolt is an aftermarket piece made by Superior Shooting Systems(David Tubb). The rifle shipped from the smith with knowledge of the problem in regards to the ejection(Still not sure why he shipped it in the first place). After discussing the problem with him, I ended up sending the bolt to Tubb for repair. The ejector springs were replaced and the extractor was moved back slightly. For what it is worth, my smith believes that a real fix is to install a second ejector to the tune of 150 bucks.
Once I received the bolt from Tubb, the problem has persisted, but is somewhat better. Cases will still hang up on the bolt face or fall right back in the raceway about every 4th round. Never have experienced strong "flinging" of spent cases.

The gunsmith has been aware of this.

Fast forward to this past Saturday. Doing load development at the range and I noticed the front ramp sight has slid forward about 1/2" Hmmm. Not good. The front ramp sight was then easily pulled off the barrel. I am not a gunsmith but it appears that the set screw was not tightened down properly, and the weld was the only thing holding it on.
At this point I called the smith from the range, and explained the problem. To his credit he offered to get it fixed and turned around for me by the 30th when I had planned to fly out to the bush.
This is where it gets real problematic. I would have sent the gun back for a quick turn around, but after 2 days at the range and extensive load testing, I cannot group better than 2". So, I have to keep the gun to try to develop a load so I can hunt on the 1st.

Sorry for the long post....
I guess what I am asking the professional gunsmiths here is do I have some grounds to get some or all of my money back? Should this be happening to a rifle worth 3g's?

Thanks
John

First of all, if I read your post right, the smith knew that gun had extraction/ejection problems. That to me is unthinkable for a smith to send a gun to a customer when he knows it won't function properly. (We get enough of those from the factories! )
Second, as for the front sight, if it was silver soldered on, it shouldn't really need a set screw to hold it on. It is a nice extra touch, so to speak, but not probably necessary unless you are talking one of the big bore, real heavy kickers.
I would send it back and have him fix it properly, AND in enough time to let you get to the range and get it dialed in and make sure nothing else will not work, or no other parts will fall off. Just MHO.

quote:

Originally posted by OLDGOAT:
At this point I called the smith from the range, and explained the problem. To his credit he offered to get it fixed and turned around for me by the 30th when I had planned to fly out to the bush.
This is where it gets real problematic. I would have sent the gun back for a quick turn around, but after 2 days at the range and extensive load testing, I cannot group better than 2". So, I have to keep the gun to try to develop a load so I can hunt on the 1st.

Sorry for the long post....
I guess what I am asking the professional gunsmiths here is do I have some grounds to get some or all of my money back? Should this be happening to a rifle worth 3g's?

Thanks
John

No, not yet. You need to get the gun to the gunsmith and let him check it out. The gunsmith has control over the sight installation and somewhat over the extraction and ejection (custom bolt). He has no control over the barrel. It is entirely possible that the barrel just won't shoot. It happens. If it is a barrel from one of the top manufacturers and it was installed correctly but still won't shoot, the manufacturer should in all likelihood replace the barrel. Give the guy a chance to correct the problem before you start thinking about refunds.

OLDGOAT: Are you sure SSS makes Remington bolts? Or are you talking about a firing pin/spring system?

Do you know if your gunsmith test fired the rifle for accuracy before he shipped it to you? For $3-large. I would have expected him to. If he did, why don't you ask him what accuracy he got AND WHAT AMMO HE WAS USING?

Which twist barrel was used, and what is it chambered for? What is the intended game and hunting conditions?

The ejection problem could be as simple as a dying ejector spring which could be replaced in about 3 minutes, or a bit more complicated, such as an aged extractor...replacement of which can take a little longer even when you know what you are doing and have the tools.

What is the "vintage" of the action used? How was the wood finished and sealed, if it is wood as I assume it is)? How is the barrel bedded?

Lots of questions here before I could opine whether to be a bit disappointed, hopeful about the future with that gun, or just plain furious.

IMO a smith should NOT HAVE:

1. sent it out with an ejection problem, if it is purely the bolt he should have dealt with Tubbs on it or informed you it wouldn't work.

2. should have test fired it, if he couldn't get it to group he should have dealt with barrel maker and corrected the problem.

3. sites shouldn't fall off. I doubt it was welded, lots of heat, likely not silver soldered either. maybe soft soldered or sweated on. but you still shouldn't be able to just pull it off by hand.

Good luck in getting it made right, I'll hope for you that the gunsmith can correct all his mistakes.

Red

Sounds to me like the smith is incompetent, in several ways. Front sight is definitely an unforgivable blunder, should have been held by the set-screw into a blind hole AND some sort of adhesive whether soft solder or silver solder or epoxy. From personal experience I can tell you that I don't use Black Max any more to retain barrrel bands, it's too problematic with too many failures to suit me.

The accuracy depends upon the barrel, so who specified the brand? If it was you then you're responsible for it, if it was the smith then it's his baby as long as the installation was done OK. Some bbls just won't group, although I kinda doubt he did a good installation job since his front sight came off...

Bolt sounds like a real can of worms, whose idea was THAT? Was the original bolt damaged? More info here, please.

All-in-all, sounds to me like an incompetent smith or else a string of very unlikely coincidences.
Regards, Joe

quote:

Originally posted by 10at6:
OLDGOAT: Are you sure SSS makes Remington bolts? Or are you talking about a firing pin/spring system?

SSS Rem 700 bolt

After reading Oldgoat's synopsis, I got the feeling that there could have been a time constraint getting this rifle out the door just in the nick of time for the upcoming hunt? Another case of haste makes waste. How many times have you seen that scenario before?

If that SSS bolt you have has the Sako type extractor, that may be the problem. That conversion, when using the wrong components, is a recipe for failure. What I suspect is happening is the ejector is kicking the empty out and it hits the scope turret and drops it back into the loading port. As for the front sight coming loose, you mention a "weld", do you mean a solder or braze?

This is an addition after I saw the previous post. Dave Tubb may be a good shooter but his bolts have the wrong extractor. Dave Kiff has the correct bolt. Send that one back to Tubb and get a Kiff bolt.

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:
After reading Oldgoat's synopsis, I got the feeling that there could have been a time constraint getting this rifle out the door just in the nick of time for the upcoming hunt? Another case of haste makes waste. How many times have you seen that scenario before?

It sounds like that could have been a problem to me as well. But I'm going to withhold judgement until I hear the other side.

In the mean time, I have a simple RUSH policy posted in my shop, it reads:

"IF YOU WANT IT BAD, YOU'LL GET IT BAD. THE WORSE YOU WANT IT, THE WORSE YOU'LL GET IT."

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Kobe:
Dave Tubb may be a good shooter but his bolts have the wrong extractor.

I agree, Kiff makes a great replacement bolt, but I'm curious about this comment. What extractor should they have used on a Tubb bolt? IF the departure angle is incorrect for the location of the scopes turret, then it is a simple matter to alter this angle. But to do so would require the gun and the scope. We don't know if the scope was installed before delivery or after.

IF the scope were installed after taking possession and the problem is with the empties hitting the scope, then the gunsmith, or, the bolt manufacturer should be given the chance to examine the problem and make the necessary adjustment.

I don't walk on water, but if I am installing a Tubb's, or, anyones Sako style extractor on a 700 without the scope, I will tell the customer up front that depending on the scope they choose, the extractor may need an adjustment, and that if they have any problems with ejection, to bring it in and I will make any necessary adjustments.

So far, in all the years of doing conversions, I've only had a couple that needed tweaking to lower the flight angle of the case. And these were because the interference was with very low mounted Mark 4's.

The SSS ad says their product solves all the problems we've all had with the Remington bolts over the years???

The only problem I've seen, repeat the ONLY problem I've ever seen with the Remington bolt is that some folks insist on chambering sloppily for the 6PPC and then overloading it so that the case wall blows out in front of the web. User error, confined solely to the PPC cases with their thin side walls and abruptly shallow case web transition. The Sako extractor conversion was conceptualized NOT to correct any inherent fault in the Remington extraction system but rather to allow hot-rodders to use the PPC cases with the Remington long-nose bolts. If your smith says the replacement was to correct an extraction problem then he's ignorant of the truth, and more than likely doesn't have much Remington experience.

Of course we all know that the Remington bolt is silver-soldered or brazed together and sometimes tha handle can be ripped off when a case sticks, but then again I've also seen several Mausers with their integral handles broken clean off when a case stuck!

I suggest you go back to your original bolt, I'll bet your problems will disappear.
Regards, Joe

I'm not making any judgements one way or the other, but all I do know is that you have a gun that ALMOST EVERY $350 Rem 700 from Walmarts will outperform accuracy and functioning wise.

I think you need some serious discussions with your gunsmith, but I'd just go buy, borrow, or use one that you already own, an out of the box Rem or, gasp, Savage in the caliber you need if you're getting jammed up on timing for a hunt. There's at least a 90% chance it will shoot MOA or less with decent loads, will function properly, and will eject properly. Then, after the hunt, or during the hunt, there will be the time available to solve this gun's problems without you or your smith being in a rush.

I am not a gunsmith. But for 3K, you have a right to expect more!

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Kobe:
If that SSS bolt you have has the Sako type extractor, that may be the problem. That conversion, when using the wrong components, is a recipe for failure. What I suspect is happening is the ejector is kicking the empty out and it hits the scope turret and drops it back into the loading port. As for the front sight coming loose, you mention a "weld", do you mean a solder or braze?

This is an addition after I saw the previous post. Dave Tubb may be a good shooter but his bolts have the wrong extractor. Dave Kiff has the correct bolt. Send that one back to Tubb and get a Kiff bolt.

I thought Kiff was making these bolts for Tubb as well as Phoenix Machine, but I might be wrong. I agree that the Sako might not be the best choice of extractors either. Kiff offers the sako extractor, the AR15 extractor and the standard Remington extractor for his bolts. I have a magnum bolt coming from Kiff for a Phoenix Machine action and I stayed with the standard Remington extractor.

As far as fixing the problem, I think I'd give the 'smith an opportunity to get it right, but make it plain to him what the time requirement is. If the ejector isn't strong enough then you can put a plug under the ejector spring to give it some extra oomph! It is possible that the hole has been drilled too deep and the spring isn't long enough to compensate. As far as acuracy is concerned, what barrel did you use? What caliber and what twist?

The problem I have run into is with the magnum bolt face. To correct this problem, I have used the 308 size extractor in that conversion. The remedy here is to get the extractor closer to the locking lug and I do that by using the narrower (308) extractor. I have not run into this problem with a 308 or similar cartridge in the Sako conversion.

From what I understand the problem can also be fixed by altering the location of the ejector pin. I do believe that is what Kiff does with his bolts. Whether or not he makes the bolts for Tubb, I don't know

Since You haven't posted what your stock is made of and how your rifle is bedded, there is no point in trying to guess why your gun is inaccurate. It could be a less than average barrel, a really crumby crown, a warped stock, a failing scope, a whole host of things...maybe all of the above or even more.

As to the failures to eject, you haven't told us enough to get very far with that either.

With Remington-type bolts, you need two things for sure to get good ejection of fired cases...one is an extractor which holds the case up against the bolt face tightly until the front of the case clears the chamber AND the front receiver ring, so that it can be pushed through the ejection port by the ejector.

If it is loosely held in the bolt face, it may fall out from under the extractor anytime after it clears the chamber, but is NOT yet clearing the receiver ring. In fact, the ejector may push it out of the bolt face before it clears the receiver ring if the extractor is not a healthy one. If that happens, it can be expected to not always eject reliably.

It also needs a good, correct length ejector pin and spring, which move freely in their hole. That way as soon as the case mouth clears the front receiver ring, the ejector can give it a good stong "hurl" out of the action. A weak or dirty ejector assembly may only allow it to shove the case strongly enough to partly clear the ejection port...sometimes enough to fall on out, but at other times only just enough to clear the extractor's grip and fall into the action.

I doubt any of us can see at this distance what exactly is happening, but YOU can.

Why don't you put an empty case in the chamber, close the bolt on it, then very slowly open it and carefully watch what transpires at the head of the case as it is brought back to where the right front edge of the case mouth clears the back edge of the front receiver ring. You should be able to see why the case is not being ejected reliably.

If you poured three large into a Remington, you really ought to be complaining about your psychotherapist not your gunsmith.

(I meant that in a humorous, good natured sort of way.)

Holy Crap!!
When it comes to advice, ask and you shall receive. Thanks for all the perspective.
I will attempt to answer some of your questions:

-The smith and I have been in communications about the problem.

-The action is new and bedded in a synthetic stock with aluminum bedding block at rear lug. It is not fully free floated(paper only slides about 2" in between the barrel and stock). Not sure as to the reason for this.

-Barrel is a shillen #3 contour chambered in 375 RUM with PTD reamer

-Scope is a Nightforce 2.5-10X32 with Nightforce rings and bases

-In regards to the extractor, I think that Alberta Cunnuck hit the nail on the head. I believe that the extractor is not holding the case on the bolt well enough.

-I cannot tell how the front ramp was attached. Probably brazed on. Wile using the set screw to reattach the front ramp as a temporary fix, I did notice that the screw was WAY out. Almost like it was never screwed in in the first place. But that is just a guess.

Now, I have received a good deal of advice on what is wrong and how to fix it. That is GREAT. That is not necessarily what concerns me. My smith is the expert and will let him fix it all in due time I am sure.
What I really want to know is it unreasonable for me to expect +/-1" groups, positive and reliable ejection, and a gun that stays in one piece from almost ANY reputable manufacturer? Or... upon receiving the rifle should I have looked at it like one of a kind specialized weapon. A weapon that WILL have problems that will require shipping back to the smith for repair and rebuild to even stronger/better specs?

Thanks again for all the input.
John

For 3 grand it should have been right the first time. If I paid that and got what you did, I'd be somewhat pissed.

quote:

Originally posted by OLDGOAT:
My smith is the expert and will let him fix it all in due time I am sure.
John

I wish you a lotta luck. Your smith may be lots of things but he most assuredly is NOT an expert at anything except blowing smoke and charging too much, IMO. If he truly knew what he was doing then you wouldn't have any of these problems. JMOFWIW, as I said, I wish you luck.
Regards, Joe

A hunting rifle should extract and eject the case reliably every time. You should expect that. A shilen barrel should shoot pretty darn well but 1/2 inch groups with a .375 RUM in a #3 might be beyond my expectations, but certainly should do better than 2". Free floating the barrel will help and be sure to give it some time to cool between shots when testing loads for best accuracy. Get it under 1" and you should be ready to go. My though on free floating vs. fitting the barrel is that it is OK to fit a barrel channel in a nice English walnut custom job, but in a synthetic go ahead and free float it, it isn't going to be a ACGG rifle anyway. You're looking for function. Best of luck and hope your 'smitty gets you lined out before you leave on your hunting trip.

Gentlemen,
Thanks for all the input. Yea, i am begining to question the smittys ability as well, but doing my best to stay positive on the matter.

"A shilen barrel should shoot pretty darn well but 1/2 inch groups with a .375 RUM in a #3 might be beyond my expectations, but certainly should do better than 2"."

You are right. 1/2" is unrealistic. 1" or maybe a little better is what I would think is possible with the right handload.

Thanks
John

i think the problem lies in the smiths qualifications not his etiquette. I don't know any of them guys that got any of the edicutt stuff. they all use the same kind of words when throwing me out

"i think the problem lies in the smiths qualifications not his etiquette. I don't know any of them guys that got any of the edicutt stuff. they all use the same kind of words when throwing me out "

Good call on that. I should have been more clear. The "etiquette" is in reference to MY actions/reactions/expectations. To his credit, my smith HAS been working with me. I just wanted perspective in regard to what I am thinking. i.e. Are my expectaions out of line? Kinda wanted to make sure I was not an unreasonable customer.

It is kinda like dealing with people in the food service industry. I don't mess with people who make my food or my guns.

Just to start this out clearly, I am NOT arguing in favor of anything your 'smith did or didn't do.

One of the problems I have had all along with the situation as posed is that I was not listening in when you and the 'smith made your business arrangement to start with.

If the agreement was that he would deliver a "semi-custom" hunting rifle to you, in a chambering you chose, with a make of barrel you chose, and a bolt you chose, then I think he has not yet lived up to the deal and should make sure it is a "functioning" hunting rifle with at least average acuracy and reliable mechanical performance....so far as those components are capable of.

If, on the other hand, if you bought the bolt yourself and just had it sent to him, and bought the barrel yourself and asked him to install it, then I would be a little less sure how much/many of the rifle's problems are really his responsibility.

I suspect it was the former, and he still owes you a good deal more than you have gotten. But I don't really think I KNOW all that.

Certainly, even if you bought the sight, delivered it to him yourself, and asked him to install it, it should have been well centered, undamaged, and stayed in place.

The reason I asked all the questions about the chambering, stocking, extraction/ejection mechanics, etc., is because unless we know exactly what is wrong, it is hard to make well-reasoned long distance guesses as to who is responsible for what.

It will be interesting to hear how all this turns out for you. If it is clearly not in line with what you asked for to begin with, then I'd be interested in learning where and how much it finally falls short, and the "gunsmith's" name after it is all over, for future reference.

Best of luck.

AC

I'm not a gunsmith, but I know all the words. I build rifles as gifts for my grandchildren and other relatives. I wouldn't give a despised brother-in-law a rifle which wouldn't feed. (I dont's despise any of my brothers-in-law, but you get my point.)

not "real gunsmith" here either, but know enough about it to know that the things you are complaining about are the exact things that make a "real gunsmith" a... " real gunsmith"...and worth paying what you have paid for. your problems are pretty well known and fairly elementry to the trade.

Sir,
May I ask what caliber and purpose this was built for?If it were dangerous game I would think that the gunsmith should have been sure of himself and his work before you recieved the gun ithe first time.A hunter stakes his life on his gun in those instances!The gunsmith only stakes his reputation and his possesions in case of liability issues.
Certainly by the second time it should have been done correctly.If not I think that if it were me he would have the option of refunding the full amount and keeping the gun for himself,or court.
Yes,I do feel that strongly about dangerous game rifles!And with that much money involved no matter the purpose I expect better work.