Does anyone know the delivery status of products offered by Waffenfabrik Hein and Satterlee Arms? I am wanting a pair of custom actions and don’t feel I should have to wait two plus years for them. Hein seems to be making very slow progress and Satterlee claims an inventory but I hear from others he is way behind and not meeting his delivery dates either. Are there any customers out there with first hand input?

Sheesh-

I believe Hein posts here, and know Stuart does. He's one of our most talented contributors.

Why don't you ask him yourself, rather than relying on hearsay?

Personally, I wouldn't want to offend him.

He's that talented.

flaco

Correct me on this Howard if I'm wrong, I think Howard is trying to get feedback from people that have recently ordered from the two manufacturers as to how long it is taking. The products are obviously great, I'd love to get a satterlee action. Howard knows gunsmiths though and knows that sometimes they are more optimistic about their time lines than is realistic.

However, if Stuart says he has it in stock I don't see how you could go wrong there. And with all the different safeties he makes now, so many options. probably better I don't have that kind of money, how could I make a decision and not be sorry I didn't get another configuration.

Red

All the more reason for written contracts.

I don't think it should be offensive, when laying down a bunch of cash, to have a written contract that specifies a due date.

Call each of them up, tell them when you need it, pay 1/2 now, and get it in writing when it will be ready for shipment. And if the day comes when you are supposed to have it and you don't, get your money back.

Howard, if you have an immediate need for two actions, your only real option is to call Granite Mountain and hope they have what you want in stock.

I put down a deposit with Hein for one of their new Mauser clones. At the time, I knew it was a long-shot but it was a chance at getting a modern M98 made just the way I wanted it. They had a roughed out prototype receiver at the Dallas show but it was a long way from being a finished action. In all honesty, I didn't ask for and they didn't give me a delivery date. I knew this was a back-burner project for them and since they're so far behind on their complete rifles right now, I figure the Mauser project is not even on their radar screen at present.

I also have a deposit with Satterlee for one of his magnum Mauser actions. He's running about 6 months behind his promised delivery date for my action. I don't know what his schedule looks like now and I don't know what he's promising customers who are putting down deposits recently. I do know a few others who are waiting on actions from Satterlee and we're all pretty much in the same boat.

flaco, there have been quite a few talented gunsmiths who have actively posted on AR and other forums and then sort off fell off the face of the earth (with customer's cash and parts). I'm not at all implying that Hein and Satterlee are in this camp, but it's not inappropriate for Howard to make a query of their customers here. Drumming up business on public internet forums is a two-edged sword.

I've been waiting on custom rifle builders for 20 years and have paid and paid and sometime had to show up unannounced to get anything done. They are all cut from same piece of cloth. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. Never dealt with the man but experience tells me that they get to much money up front and then get to feeling like they are working on your project for nothing.

I ordered a Hein in November of 2005 and I still haven't received it yet (put 50% down). They told me it would be about 12 months when I ordered it. There was a delay getting a D'Arcy pattern McMillian fiberglass stock, but they have had it for a couple months (stock). Not sure what the delay is now - have sent a couple emails with no responce - I guess I need to call and see what's up.

Sorry.

I'll always sympathize with the 'Smith.

These are the guys that make this forum.

The "Gunsmithing Forum"? Remember?

ForrestB, you're the last person I want to disagree with. Almost all your posts are Xs.

But you're painting with a broad brush here when you bring back memories of Belk, etc.

I've loved the photographs of fine rifles you've commissioned from some of the best, I've learned from you, but... well, you're not a gunsmith.

I think both these outfits are in this for the long haul.

I know little about Hein, but I think they're bigger.

As far as I can tell, Stuart is a one-man show, and this is tough. He has to do all the creative work, and run a small business.

He lives or dies by gunsmithing.

Your commitment is much, much less.

Really... my point here is that we've run many, many great talents away.

The guys who offer more than opinions.

The guys that know how to do it.

Because they've done it.

flaco

N.B. If you want to put it in perspective, order a barrel from Krieger.

Last I heard, 16 weeks wait.

Flaco don’t know where you are coming from with your comments about sympathy and commitment and running off of posters. I hear reports of missed delivery dates, missed by months not by days or weeks. The internet is a great place to solicit information. I simply asked for first hand experience. Do you have any to offer? It is easy to offer an opinion and take sides when you don’t have thousands of dollars invested.

My question is really very simple. These people have posted on AR with the intention of soliciting business. I have put money down for two actions with Hein and was, based on the reports I was getting, skeptical of getting them anytime soon. I then inquired about actual delivery dates for Satterlee actions thinking of taking my business there. He does list on his web site as in stock. Apparently this is not true.

I did manage to make contact with Greg Hein today. Karl Webber is in the process of disassociating himself from the business. This was offered up as the reason for lack of communication on their part. Greg also said he has lost his stock maker and was pushed behind by that. He indicated he was going to be getting a CNC machine, I thought they already had one, and was going to start to work on actions only. No more complete rifles. He indicated that he intended to meet his promised delivery data of late this year for my actions. Also my deposit is on record and all is well.

Hein is not fast but good and dependable he is.

It would be worth the wait.

I guess I look at this a different way. I am one of the most patient people in the world, but I do take people at their word. So, if I commission some work, be it gunsmith, knifemaker, custom furniture, etc, I find what I want and get it ordered. Now, I ask the craftsman when he will be done with it. At this point he is in charge. He can say 5 months, he can say 5 years....but, and here is where my patience wears thin....when the time comes when he said he was going to be finished with the project, I expect it to be finished. HE SET THE TIME frame, not me. He was in charge of knowing how long it would take to do what I wanted done.
Of course, due to illness or parts not available, there are excuses, but, if it is just because he got to busy, or took on too many projects, that is not my fault. He should have managed time and workload better.
We seem to treat some craftsmen workers different just because of what they do. How many of you would take your classic car to a reputable garage to have work done, only to have them take a year longer than was promised? How about remodeling on a house...someone adds a room on and takes 1 year or more past the agreed upon, and probably paid for, due date?
Everyone is a craftsman of some kind or another, no matter what work you do. Could you promise your boss a project to be done and then take several weeks, months more to finish it and still have a job? I know I couldn't.!
In a nutshell the gunsmith, or any other craftsman tells the customer when a project is to be done. He should honor those committments.

Thus endeth my rant.

quote:

Originally posted by flaco:
I'll always sympathize with the 'Smith.

That's only because you haven't written enough checks to them yet. There's a reason the ACGG has an ethics committee.

[N.B. none of what you are about to read necessarily applies to Hein or Satterlee]

I'll bend over backwards to help out talented gunsmiths, parts makers and engravers who are trying to get started or trying to expand. A few times it has worked out but most of the time it has been an utter disaster. That won't stop me from trying though.

I'm glad you've enjoyed my photos but they only tell half the story. I've had projects that didn't turn out as planned, or just plain didn't turn out. You won't see photos or read detailed descriptions about those failures.

There are lots of small business owners who live and die by their trade (I'm one of them). How many fabricators of industrial equipment could stay in business if they were late on deliveries by a year or more? Many highly-engineered products today have a product life cycle of less than a year. You just can't be late by six months or a year - you'll be out of business.

I'm a huge advocate of the custom gun business. I'll help any maker and any customer in almost any way possible in order to foster the trade. The truth of the matter is that there is no scarcity of talent, only a scarcity of talent combined with good business practices. I wish I could figure that one out, but the solution eludes me.

quote:

Originally posted by katiesguns:
... experience tells me that they get to much money up front and then get to feeling like they are working on your project for nothing.

Not far from the truth.
In good will,some yrs ago,I payed up front for metal& woodwork with a particular smith.
The thing sat on the sidelines for months at a time, while he started&finished projects that came in after mine.
These days Im often skeptical of what folks promise and my judgement often proves to be correct.
22WRF' idea of having a written contract is not unreasonable at all.
Sometimes its not until you put a blowtorch to their belly that move to do what they should be doing.
and while on the subject of Custom items, it seems that GSC bullets & its appointed global dealers are laying low under the email radar.

Contract?

-lots of considered opinions and information on this thread; I'll add two cents:

Many times, besides a source of information, the forum is used to conduct business. If a person asks about an action, barrel, gunsmithing work, etc, some responses will be an offer of an item for sale, or a rendered service.

If business is conducted here, business will be discussed. If the forum is viewed or used as a source of customers, questions/opinions from them concerning rates, time frames, etc, will arise, rightly.

Conversely, a gunsmith or vendor has as much right to say what they want to say, rightly.

In a sense at times, the forum is free advertising- but maybe it ain't free.

quote:

Drumming up business on public internet forums is a two-edged sword.

Yes.

Howard - I ordered a rifle from Satterlee sometime around last September and have been very pleased with Satterlee's progress and communication along the way.



This rifle would be finished by now, but I've had to wait a couple of months on scope mounts (which came in last week) and am still waiting on Swarovski to deliver the new Z6 scopes. (If anyone knows where I can get one let me know).

I know both Karl and Gregg too, and all of the above are stand-up guys. I guess your expected wait/delivery time depends largely upon what you want from them, i.e.: how close it is to what they normally do or what they have in stock.

In answer to your question, Satterlee has been on schedule or ahead of schedule since we started this project.

Regarding his inventory, I was by his shop a couple of months back and can tell you that he definitely has actions in stock. I don't know if they were the ones you're looking for, but they are there.

Good luck.

Well guys I'm pedaling as fast as I can and we just set up a 3 axis machining center, it will get things rolling faster.
Stuart

quote:

Originally posted by congomike:
I guess I look at this a different way. I am one of the most patient people in the world, but I do take people at their word. So, if I commission some work, be it gunsmith, knifemaker, custom furniture, etc, I find what I want and get it ordered. Now, I ask the craftsman when he will be done with it. At this point he is in charge. He can say 5 months, he can say 5 years....but, and here is where my patience wears thin....when the time comes when he said he was going to be finished with the project, I expect it to be finished. HE SET THE TIME frame, not me. He was in charge of knowing how long it would take to do what I wanted done.
Of course, due to illness or parts not available, there are excuses, but, if it is just because he got to busy, or took on too many projects, that is not my fault. He should have managed time and workload better.
We seem to treat some craftsmen workers different just because of what they do. How many of you would take your classic car to a reputable garage to have work done, only to have them take a year longer than was promised? How about remodeling on a house...someone adds a room on and takes 1 year or more past the agreed upon, and probably paid for, due date?
Everyone is a craftsman of some kind or another, no matter what work you do. Could you promise your boss a project to be done and then take several weeks, months more to finish it and still have a job? I know I couldn't.!
In a nutshell the gunsmith, or any other craftsman tells the customer when a project is to be done. He should honor those committments.

Thus endeth my rant.

I couldn't agree more with your sentiments. When I ordered my rifle from Hein in November of 2005 (read put money down) I did it well in advance (at least I thought I did) for use on a hunt I had booked for this year 2007. As it stands now that rifle will not be ready.

I have another Satterlee action on order with a promised deliver date of June/July of this year (again with a 50% deposit). With that work plan in mind I have also ordered a Krieger barrel and purchased wood (additional deposits). I guess I feel commitments/deadlines are pretty important, as there are often multiple decisions being made.

I think that Howard has a valid right to his question. Roger Vardy has a couple rifles over here that have been unfinished since the middle 1980s. This is an extreme. I furnished a smith all the components to build a rifle and I had to get my parts back after 3 years as nothing happened on it.
That being said, David Christman built my 458 Lott in 10 months after promising it in 12. He completely reshaped a stock, reheadspaced, and rustblued my Argentine in 5 months. David is building a Mexican 7x57 for me. He started in Sept 2006, He did a double square bridge, New bolt handle, custom bolt release , recasehardened, and all the things you do to customize it. He sent the receiver at my request to another smith that was to do a half octagon barrel that I had already shipped to him several months before with full payment to chamber and index it. That reputable smith has fallen off the face of earth. I hope that I have not lost an expensive receiver, barrel, and money. I also hope he gets his problems straightened out as it will certainly hurt him in the future. He at least owes me a little communication.
David Christman has been a jewell to work with and they're are others that are like him. Communication would eliminate 90% of their problems.
Butch

new_guy & Tinman,

That is a good looking rifle!

What caliber is it?

It's a 404 Rimless Nitro Express.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it would seem hard to do work like this on a schedule. That's going to be one fine rifle

Terry

NEW_GUY,
Try Kim LeHew at Accuracy Arms. #972-771-8977. He has sold a few Z6, but said the only one that was just now coming out was the one with the illuminated reticles. So far he has had quick delivery.
Butch

I have always said...the only person on the face of the Earth who can lie better than a gunmaker is a taxidermist.

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
NEW_GUY,
Try Kim LeHew at Accuracy Arms. #972-771-8977. He has sold a few Z6, but said the only one that was just now coming out was the one with the illuminated reticles. So far he has had quick delivery.
Butch

Thanks Butch. I need a Z6, 1-6 EE (non illum) with SR rail for this particular gun.

Maybe their shipping the illum models first is what's causing the delay.

Timan, is mine going to look that pretty, lol

New_Guy,
Kim was at Swarowski school last week and indicated some models were in stock. He will check for sure in the morning with his rep. He is going to order one with the SR rail for his personal use.
Butch

quote:

Originally posted by Timan:
Well guys I'm pedaling as fast as I can and we just set up a 3 axis machining center, it will get things rolling faster.
Stuart

Terry-

Your first comment is/was priceless (given our collective experience)!!!!

Inside joke, mind you.

Second comment totally on the mark, as well.

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
Contract?

I suppose there are those that give their word and honor it without hassle, then there are those that would sign a contract but still have no intension of delivering.

Good things are worth waiting for.

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Good things are worth waiting for.

Have you used that line on a client when you failed to file a brief on time?

quote:

I suppose there are those that give their word and honor it without hassle, then there are those that would sign a contract but still have no intension of delivering.

Quite right. But, at the very least, if a contract exists, the customer has something binding on paper that he could seek remedy with should the transaction go south on him. I haven't been in business nearly as long as many of the men who've posted on this thread, but I have already witnessed situations where the outcome would have been more favorable for the concerned parties if a contract had existed. People tend to act differently when money is involved and it has been my experience that its far easier to go by what's on paper when dealing with a financial matters; especially when you're trying to get someone to do something they don't necessarily want to do.

And that's my $.02.

OK, just to ease my mind here. How many have ever had a custom rifle built and had the gunsmith sign a contract before the work was started? and IF you did, what was the gunsmiths name?

Terry

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Good things are worth waiting for.

The question was not if things are worth waiting for. The question was about meeting promised delivery times.

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
OK, just to ease my mind here. How many have ever had a custom rifle built and had the gunsmith sign a contract before the work was started? and IF you did, what was the gunsmiths name?

Terry

How about putting it this way Terry.

You have had a lot of custom work done by a lot of different custom makers. Have you ever had work delivered very late? Were you upset about it? Why didn't you use a contract?

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
OK, just to ease my mind here. How many have ever had a custom rifle built and had the gunsmith sign a contract before the work was started? and IF you did, what was the gunsmiths name?

Terry

How about putting it this way Terry.

You have had a lot of custom work done by a lot of different custom makers. Have you ever had work delivered very late? Were you upset about it? Why didn't you use a contract?

Nope, answer the question the way it was asked.

Terry

quote:

Originally posted by ForrestB:

quote:

Originally posted by 500grains:
Good things are worth waiting for.

Have you used that line on a client when you failed to file a brief on time?

A bit touchy today, aren't you?

A custom gun project shouldn't need a contract. If the gunsmith doesn't deliver what are you supposed to do? Litigate? At $500/hr?

For a big project, I can see the benefit of putting together a spec sheet that includes a promised delivery date and having both parties sign it. It's not a contract, there are no remedies, but it puts in writing everyone's expectations. I've used this method before but on one project in particular it didn't preclude a complete disaster.

I primarily use the same three or four craftsmen now. They're not the cheapest, the fastest, and maybe not even the absolute best in their respective fields (I hope they don't read this). What they do have in common is they are VERY good at what they do, they communicate well, and they are VERY honest. We don't use spec sheets any more and I don't even ask for a receipt when I make progress payments to them. In a couple of cases they rely on me to keep up with the accounting. Working with them is a lot of fun for me. They pretend to let me be part of the creative process.

In the course of finding these few craftsmen, I've had to kiss a few toads. Most often it has just cost me time, ocassionally it has cost me money.

Building a custom gun is almost always a bad economic decision. A good factory gun can do anything a custom can do. People commission custom guns because it makes them FEEL good. It might be the feeling of being part of the creative process or it might be the feeling of pride in owning a best-quality gun that happens to also be a work of art. Gunsmiths need to focus on their own business economics but me mindful to never rob the customer of the good feeling he is looking for.

No one NEEDS a custom gun, it's the ultimate discretionary purchase. Most businesses that rely on upscale discretionary spending are great service providers. Gunsmiths as a whole probably rank very low on the scale of delivering customer service.

Over-promising and under-delivering is the easiest way to sour a business relationship. Communication is the key to great business relationships and bad news is best conveyed early. I've been doing this long enough now to know when things are not going well - the communication tapers off to nearly nothing, the infrequent conversations are vague or become attempts at misdirection. I'll ask, "When do you think I'll get the action you promised me?" They say something like, "Whew, I'm working hard on it. Have I told you about my new milling machine?"

Does anyone have experience with how the European bespoke gunmakers follow through on promise dates, like a Holland & Holland, Purdey, etc.???