With all the talk about rifle accuracy it’s sometimes easy to forget about the most important aspect...the guy behind the rifle.

The July, 2003 American Rifleman had a great story about George R. Farr and his shooting exploits at Camp Perry in 1921. Mr. Farr used a a NM, open sighted 1903 rifle that he “drew†that morning (he had never fired that rifle before.) His ammunition was the free, issue stuff handed out by the staff.

Not only did Mr. Farr not have his own rifle and ammunition, he also didn’t have a spotting scope so he used one side of an old pair of binoculars that he had with him.

He then proceeded to get into a 1,000 yard shoot off with a Marine SGT who was shooting a scoped NM 1903. Mr. Farr shot 70 consecutive bullseyes before he dropped out due to darkness. The Marine shot 76 consecutive bullseyes, but that was with a scoped rifle, while Mr. Farr used the issue drift slide sights.

As an added note, Mr. Farr was 62 years old at the time!

The local shop owner/smith and I were having a conversation once about competition level accuracy rifles. He told me that guys that don't shoot competitive come in and say they want a benchrest rifle not knowing what it entails. This was when I first got into rifles and knew nothing. He said that after they build the rifle for the guy, then you're looking at over a grand for a scope for the level of competition they are talking. Then to be able to shoot as good as the rifle they need to practice for hours and hours, every day, not just live fire but dry fire.

In short, aside from glaring problems the rifles will normally perform better than most people are capable of. Now I feel guilty since I haven't been to the range in months. And as my gunsmith said to me the ONE time I told him my rifle shot better than I was capable of,"Why?"

Better get to the range...

Red

overheard at gun shop when i was just a kid, custmer to gunsmith: how much to build a rifle to shoot 1/2" and under groups? Gunsmith replies x amount for barrel, x amount for stock, x amount for scope,ect. Friend of both customer and Gunsmith says Jerry how come you want a 1/2min. rifle when you're a 10min shooter? All the above have gone to the range up above except me, I sure miss them.

Quite an interesting and thought provoking topic. It calls to memory a conversation I had with tech reps from both Sinclair and Redding whan I called them up to ask what equipment would thay recammend I buy to improve a rifle I owned that was a honest MOA to sub MOA performer. Thay both asked what level of accuracy I was getting, what type of reloading tools and equipment I owned and was my rifle factory, custom or some where in between, and what was its intended purpose, ie; hunting varments, big game, or target.

Thay both said much the same thing, but the Sinclair rep said it best when he stated that I would wind up spending over (as I for the most part only possesed basic reloading equipment) $200 for every .125 inch I "MIGHT" shave off my groups, as any equipment I bought and used was no guarantee thay would do ANYTHING what so ever to improve my accuracy, although thay there was a fair chance thay would. Both told me to leave well enough alone, especially with mine being a 100% factory rifle.

I fallowed their advice.

This is timely. I have done a lot of work to various people's rifles over the years to improve the accuracy potential of the rifle. I was asked by a fellow a few weeks ago if I would work on his rifle and what would it cost. He wanted to improve his chances at an elk in a few months. I told him what the basic work would cost but then I told him I would not do it until he showed me that he new how to shoot. He asked me what in the H.... I was talking about, he could shoot. I said that I was tired of working on rifles for people who would not do the necessary practice and who were unwilling to change their bad habits. I told him that I would meet him at the range and he could show me what he knows. He calmed down and agreed to it. I told him to bring 200 rounds of ammo. After the range session he realized that the rifle already was more accurate than he was and was plenty accurate to take any elk at reasonable distances. He was also surprised at the changes made by correcting a few bad shooting practices. I like accurate rifles, but I think the general public would be better served by learning how to shoot well.

No matter how much time some one spends on the range. No matter how good he gets his skills down.

If he is shooting a 2min rifle he will not be a 1/2 min shooter.

Having a very accurate rifle is just one less thing to worry about.

I know how easy it is to get spoiled by a some great shooting rifles. After shooting some of my very accurate rifles. then take a common run of the mill 1.5 to 2 in rifle out. I'll shoot a group look through the spoting scope and say dam that a huge group then measure it.

To only find out it is in the 1.5 range. Plenty good enough for most hunting..

But then after shooting groups in the .5 and under a 1.5 is 3 times as big.

Range time and skill building is a good thing and every body should do as much as they can.

But a very tight grouping rifle is a joy.

I look at it another way. The superbly accurate rifles and ammo being used in competition these days actually put the emphasis back on the shooter. When everyone on the thousand yard line at Camp Perry has a quarter to half minute rifle, who wins? The best shooter. Mr. Farr could just have likely drawn a real piece of crap for a rifle and bombed out long before the shoot off and we wouldn't hear this story.

Same thing applies to all forms of competition. The half minute shooter with a two minute rifle probably won't beat a three quarter minute shooter with a quarter minute rifle.

Rick,
That's an awesome story!!
Thanks for posting it.
Don

I have resigned myself to the fact that I will never be as good as my rifle nor as good as my golf clubs. I won't quit trying though.

My rifles are probably better shooters than I am. All three are sub MOA (if I do my part), and I have often wondered what the true capability of them is.

Still, I am trying to improve both my shooting style and equipment. It helps to remove all of the "big" things, and then just focus on the little tricks.

I think you've all missed the "other" moral of the story: the Marine drew a scoped rifle, delayed each string of fire until it got too dark to use iron sights, and found a way to win, even against the superior shooter.

Right, Rick?

Seriously, very motivating story.

My own take on the shooter vs weapon thing is that I have shot tiny groups with good rifles and good handloads, but once I had my SMLE shooting 10 minutes of angle with surplus ammo. I found the loose barrel band screw and brought it back to its typical 1.5 to 2" groups, but I wouldn't have appreciated playing 20 questions on how good a shooter I was if I'd taken it to a smith asking if he'd allow me to give him money to locate the problem and make it accurate.

I understand where smiths must get tired of putting together 1/2 MOA rifles and having poor shooters complain about them, too, though. I suppose the test target included with the rifle's probably the best way to address the problem.

I will shoot military surplus rifles that aren't MOA accurate, but I want the rest of my rifles to be MOA or better. I know they don't have to be MOA to hunt with, but I shoot them a lot more than I hunt with them.

Luckily, I seem to be able to make most factory rifles shoot well by handloading for them.

Steve

That's a great story.

I agree that today's ultra-precise, super-accurate rifles, ammo, and scopes put the emphasis back on the shooter.

No matter what, fine equipment will never make up for a lack on skill on the part of the shooter. High-tech gear only goes so far; you can't "high-tech" yourself into a rifleman. That part simply can't be faked, and you can't turn gear into any sort of a crutch to make up for a lack of fundamental skill as a rifleman.

From a hunting standpoint, I've seen guys with absolutely precise, high-quality gear -- guys who were great off the bench and on the range back home, as well as in the varmint field -- blow easy shots due to poor physical conditioning and buck fever. Coolness in the presence of game is another area that "high-tech" target practice can't help you with.

On the other hand, I personally know guys with basic, well-tuned 30-06 rifles with simple 4x or 2-7x scopes who'd I'd gladly place ten-to-one odds on making any sort of difficult, long shot under field condidtions you'd care to place in front of them, and I put them against the average paper-puncher armed with a 1/2 minute Ultra-Gag and a 6.5-20x scope. The reason is the '06 guys are ultra-cool in the presence of game, know when to shoot and when not to shoot, have great instincts, and are otherwise superbly experienced -- all the stuff that a trip to Cabela's or your favorite "beanfield" riflemaker can't buy you.

AD

The real question is are you a micrometer guy or a pie pie plate guy i am a pie plate guy if i can hit a 5 in plate at hunting distance every time off hand im happy and i rarely find a rifle that wont do it but it does happen

I just thought Mr. Farr’s accomplishment was pretty incredible...and I guess others did also since the trophy for high shooter in the 1,000 yard service rifle matches since 1922 has been named The Farr Trophy.

Not many trophies get named for the guy that came in second-place.

Gotta agree with everyone about that being an interesting story indeed. Sounds like Mr. Farr had thousands of hours of Range Time developing his skill, concentration and good fortune for getting that specific rifle.
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When I was in Huntsville, I worked with another excellent Engineer that really enjoyed shooting pistols and revolvers. It might be more appropriate to say he was an excellent Pistol/Revolver shooter who supported his shooting by being an Engineer.

We got to talking about shooting at lunch one day and decided to meet at a local Range. He said he would need to stop and get some ammo because his was all shot-up. (Should have been a clue.)

He stopped by JC’s and got some plain old Master (commercial) Reloads and proceeded to clean my clock. It wasn’t even something to be embarrassed about because he was obviously in a whole different Pistol/Revolver class than I was. And he had the absolutely WORST shooting stance I’ve ever seen, but it sure worked for him due to thousands of hours of practice.

Come to find out, he had been on the Pistol/Revolver Range probably every time I’d gone to the Rifle Range and I had no idea he was there. Just a steady firing cadence coming from that Range off in the distance was all I’d been aware of until we talked some more.
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But, the real all time Classic was when a World Renowned Hunter(WRH) scheduled a hunt on one of the Plantations I have access to. The Owner called and said, “Clear a few days during late October because Mr. Xxxxx is coming to hunt.†Well, to say we were all fired up is a HUGE understatement. All of the locals were just thrilled that he was coming to hunt. We’d read of his hunts and were all excited he had chosen to hunt the old Plantation.

When he arrives, he is in a HUGE car and there in the trunk were a couple of fine looking rifle cases. Of course EVERYONE wanted to meet the WRH and hear some stories. We headed him right on in for a good old Lowcountry Wild Hog BBQ dinner. He did regale us with some just mesmerizing stories where you felt like you were right there on the hunt.

And some interesting facts(?) about the rifles he preferred to use. Just amazing the minute things he considered absolutely necessary to bring a rifle up-to his Personal Standards. Made us wonder how we ever managed to kill a thing.

The owner asked what type of hunt he wanted for the afternoon. All kinds of possibilities for those of you who know the South Carolina Lowcountry. And the WRH said he would prefer starting the hunt by riding around the property and hunting from the truck. Of course that is illegal, so it was explained that wasn’t an option. But, all the other options were mentioned and you could see the disappointment growing with the WRH, but he didn’t complain.

Next up the owner told him he needed to run WRH out to the Range and see how his rifles made the trip. Plus, WRH could see a good bit of the property then. Knowing the drill, a few of us had gone ahead to get the targets up at various distances.

They arrive and WRH (accidentally?) mentioned he had never actually fired these particular rifles, but they had special loads and he knew they would be perfect. Good old Nosler Partitions which were the best bullet made at that time(and are still fine). And he proceeded to once again regale us with his great hunts using only Nosler Partitions in his lengthy huning career. Huuuummm, how did we ever manage to kill a single thing?

Some of us were scratching our heads about what appeared to be a total lack of preparation on his part, but he was after all the WRH and obviously knew what he was doing.

As we drooled over the beautiful Blue barrels that were so polished it looked like you could run your hand down into the Bluing. And pieces of walnut that was exhibition quality(as WRH explained to us), it sure made big smiles all around. Then he asked if any of us wanted to shoot the rifles. Just couldn’t believe it, but of course everyone politely declined so we could watch and learn from the WRH.

Well, he shot OK, but it was a bit of a disappointment. The rifles did seem to be capable, but perhaps he was just having a bad day with him being the WRH and all. Heck, we all have a bad day at the Range occasionally.

He did get to go on a hunt that afternoon, but it was late so he decided to just go to a Stand. Fine by us, cause there were some HUGE Deer all over the property. He had his choice of the Plantation and selected a spot near the Beans, but as far away from the water as was possible.(Strange for us locals.) We told him we’d hang a climbing stand for him on a Pine if that was where he really wanted to be.

Later that evening as the sun was setting, we hear a shot… then another… then another and figured he had to be piling them up.(Lots of Crop Damage Tags available.) The truck rolls up to get him and he manages to drop the rifle from maybe 25’ and it landed muzzle first. Then he nearly ripped all the bark off the Pine coming down, apparently didn’t get the foot portion stuck-in real well. But it was exciting to watch the WRH in action.

Muzzle was full of trash and the stock had an interesting scrape/dent. We got to him and he said he was sure he had killed a couple of Deer, but we couldn’t seem to find them. We told him we would go get a couple of Tracker Hounds and came back to look. Then he mentioned that if we didn’t mind, he would clean the rifle while we looked. (OK?)

We lead the dogs around for about 3 hours and they didn’t strike, so back to the Main House we go. WRH had feasted on some fine steak and asked if we would mind cleaning the rifle since he was tired and needed to get all rested for the morning hunt. Of course, we were more than glad to help the WRH out.

He once again told us some hunt stories and finally went off to bed. As we were looking at the mangled rifle, the Owner asked us what we all thought about WRH. Responses were mostly polite, and the opinions varied. But, we did get to mess with the Exhibition Grade rifle and clean it up. (Great trigger on it by the way.)

The next morning WRH chose a Dog Drive and that was a lot of fun for everyone. WRH did manage to wound one with a shotgun from 35yds. The Owner got to the Deer and finished it off with a revolver while WRH never moved.

I told the Owner I had a previous commitment(which I did) and left. As the story was related to me a couple of weeks later, the Owner made it through one more hunt(a Hog Hunt) with WRH before he told him to leave and never come back.

Apparently the only real practical shooting WRH had was with his mouth. He apparently needed a whole lot more Range Trigger Time and a lot less Story Regaling time. But, what did we know, after all he was the WRH - all you had to do was ask if he was.

Hot Core,

I seem to recall that a major gun mag w/ in the past year or so, had set up a shooting contest amongst several WRHs at an unfamilair range w/ targets set at unknown distances to simulate a hunting situation. I think that nothing was farther than about 300 or 350 yards. The article describled how some of these guys came w/ the top end tricked out rifles w/ the best gagets. I beleive Mr. Zent was the only one of the group that could hit anything. I believe he has a solid background in competitive shooting. The others blamed everything but themselves.

Not to berate any WRH, but marksmanship is a fleeting skill that requires a continuous repetition of sound basic fundamentals. This cannot be bought.

Gary

HC, that is a hell of a post and it reminds me of a few incidents I have seen; I howled with laughter for several minutes after I read it. I kinda think that this situation is much more common than the gun mags would have us believe.....

I’m not at all against people trying to make their rifles as accurate as possible...but I thought that story demonstrated that the guy behind the rifle is also a very important part of the equation that can’t be forgotten about in the rush to buy all the new accuracy toys out there.

Most rifles, right out of the factory box and shooting factory ammunition, are capable of far more accuracy than the vast majority of shooters out there could ever hope to take advantage of.

Of course, there are exceptions...but that‘s what makes them “exceptions†and not the rule!

quote:

Originally posted by GaryVA:
...Not to berate any WRH, but marksmanship is a fleeting skill that requires a continuous repetition of sound basic fundamentals. This cannot be bought...

That is why his name was not mentioned. Also agree that those who think Trigger Time equates to wasted time has a lot to learn.

quote:

Originally posted by kutenay:
HC, that is a hell of a post and it reminds me of a few incidents I have seen; I howled with laughter for several minutes after I read it. I kinda think that this situation is much more common than the gun mags would have us believe.....

Hey Kutenay, I would imagine you would have seen more of them than I have since a lot of the WRHs want to come hunt your beautiful Canada. Have you noticed it takes "less time" to spot one now that you have been around some of them?

I was at an NRA Convention in one of the Powder Booths talking to a Rep and I spotted a WRH that I wanted to meet walking up and the Rep quietly said, "Uh-oh!". You could tell the WRH had a question he wanted to ask as he simply blurted into our conversation. Kind of put me on-guard due to the rudness.

For anyone who spends any time around the WRHs, I'll just say his posture is such that he appears to be looking through the very bottom part of a set of Tri-Focals as he is conversing with a person.

I decided not to say anything to him and after a brief discussion(he wanted some Powder sent to him for FREE of course), off he went. The Rep and I looked at each other and began laughing. The Rep offered, "Kind of a "snooty" chap, what say?!", and I really broke up. I told him he would never be able to hunt the Lowcountry because all the rain would drownd him(with his nose that high in the air). Pitiful!

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
I’m not at all against people trying to make their rifles as accurate as possible...but I thought that story demonstrated that the guy behind the rifle is also a very important part of the equation that can’t be forgotten about in the rush to buy all the new accuracy toys out there....

Hey Rick, I absolutely agree with your thoughts. And I certainly DID NOT mean to imply that Mr. Farr reminded me of a few "memorable" WRHs I've met over the years. Just the opposite. For a person to perform that kind of shooting skill simply speaks volumes for the many thousands of hours of actual Target Practice he had acquired.

Mr. Farr is the kind of person we(or at least me) could all learn from if we watched him just go through his normal Range Routine.

I've just always found it more interesting to hunt with a person who has a lot of (acquired) shooting skill. It is an extremely rare occasion they need more than 1-shot for a clean kill. And it is nice to see they have that ability not only up-close, but also at distance.

Which reminds me of another really exceptionally nice WRH that I did not get to meet. He stood about 10' tall in everyone's eyes when he left and never fired at any of the Trophy Deer - which he saw plenty of. But, I've hijacked this enough.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
With all the talk about rifle accuracy it’s sometimes easy to forget about the most important aspect...the guy behind the rifle.

The July, 2003 American Rifleman had a great story about George R. Farr and his shooting exploits at Camp Perry in 1921. Mr. Farr used a a NM, open sighted 1903 rifle that he “drew†that morning (he had never fired that rifle before.) His ammunition was the free, issue stuff handed out by the staff.

Not only did Mr. Farr not have his own rifle and ammunition, he also didn’t have a spotting scope so he used one side of an old pair of binoculars that he had with him.

He then proceeded to get into a 1,000 yard shoot off with a Marine SGT who was shooting a scoped NM 1903. Mr. Farr shot 70 consecutive bullseyes before he dropped out due to darkness. The Marine shot 76 consecutive bullseyes, but that was with a scoped rifle, while Mr. Farr used the issue drift slide sights.

As an added note, Mr. Farr was 62 years old at the time!

You are correct, of course. And this is a great story!

However, I believe the purpose of this forum is to help us maximize the performance of our equipment rather than ourselves. Improving ourselves is basically just a matter of practice, practice, practice!!

HotCore
That post nearly cost me a keyboard! I have often suspected that many of the WRH that write all those great articles are more expert with the pen then the trigger.

I am fairly new to shooting (under 10 years), and have learned alot from this forum, but some of the articles in the gun mags have me scratching my head at times.

quote:

I think the general public would be better served by learning how to shoot well.

Well said OEH!

If I understand NASCAR and the "Indi-Cars" rules. You are governed as to HP etc. This being said I guess it`s up to the drivers to do the rest! Same for us shooters. We got the best equipment now it`s up to us to step up to the plate and improve our sport. I think the "Minute of Pie-plate" attitude needs improvement. Take the time to get to know your rifle and you`ll make the difficult shots look easy. As John Wayne once said-- "Beware the man with ONE gun-----He`ll know how to use it".

Aloha, Mark
PS J. Wayne might have gotten the quote from Will Rogers. I am not sure.

quote:

Originally posted by El Deguello:

You are correct, of course. And this is a great story!

However, I believe the purpose of this forum is to help us maximize the performance of our equipment rather than ourselves. Improving ourselves is basically just a matter of practice, practice, practice!!

No arguement...but just thought it might be appropriate every now and then to point out that in order to realize and/or evaluate the potential of all that neat equipment, its sometimes helpful if you first know your own potential to see if it is up to what you are expecting from your rifle.

I’ve seen an awful lot of supposedly inaccurate rifles “magically†become tack-drivers by nothing more than putting them in a different set of hands!