I have been searching the history on this site and can not find someone with the same problem. This problem is with a Remington 700 Classic in 7mm. After I shoot, I run about 10 patches with Butchs Bore Shine through the bore, pushing straight out the first 3 or 4 and running back and forth the rest. I am using a Sinclair guide and a Boretech coated rod with a brass tipton jag. The patches after the last one are still black, but much less so than the first one. Then i put wipe-out in over night. Next morning push it out and it is navy. If I soak it again with that it comes out clear. Then i run a couple of patches with Butches to clean out the Wipe-out and they come out clean. Then I run some dry patches to dry out the barrel. Well the first patch will be clean, but then the more DRY patches I run, the dirtier they start becoming. So I decide to soak with a Hoppes/Kroil mixture overnight. First patch pushing that out comes out dirty. Then a dry patch that comes out clean. Then more dry patches that come out dirty.

I know that is a mess to follow my explanation, but the bottom line is no matter what i clean it with, after running several dry patches, the dry patches are what come out black. Not dark black, but they are dirty all around. I have even tried a Patchworm instead of a guide and rod in case it was coming off my rod, but same results.

Any ideas?

It sounds like something may be reacting to the chemicals.

Just as an experiment, change three things:

- First, use a nylon bore brush instead of the jag.

- Next, change to a different (preferably uncoated rod.

- Finally, try a wet patch without using the bore guide.

You don't happen to be shooting the lubalox coated Nosler/Winchester bullets (Ballistic Silver Tip) are you? That stuff is really tenacious. It took me wearing out 2 brushed and a full bag of patches to get back to bare metal in one rifle...and it didn't help anything to do so!

Use a bronze brush. After you have wetted the bore with Hoppes/Kroil, run 20 strokes back and forth with a brush, dry patch, then repeat, but with a soaking time before brushing. You probably have some hard deposits that are going to require mechanical action to loosen. Has it been a while since it was thoroughly cleaned? Is there any pitting in the bore that could be trapping gunk?

Just a shot in the dark, there are at least 4 kinds of fouling: Lead, Carbon, Copper, and bullet coating(moly etc.) They do not all respond to the same solvents, or techniques. Carbon fouling is exceptionally tenacious, sometimes requiring JB Bore Compound or equivalent. JMO, you will never get a bore so clean that a series of clean patches will emerge without some discoloration, albeit faint.

Hello,
First off, how new is the barrel or how many rounds have you fired through the barrel?? Reason I am asking that is, have you broke in the barrel?? Many schools of thought on "break in" but most factory barrels would scare you if you looked at the bores with a scope. The blue you are seeing is copper fouling created by the copper jacket of the bullet being scraped off by the roughness, non polished surface, of the bore itself as the bullet goes down the bore at a very high rate of speed!! If Remington, Win. etc. polished the bores by hand the cost would be much higher off the dealers shelf.

Go to your local Chevy dealer and purchse a can, areosol or liquid, of GM Top Engine Cleaner. Works like Shooter's Choice, but much cheaper in price. (many Bench Rest and Match Shooters have used it for years) Put three or four wet patches through bore, breech to muzzle, never pull old "dirty patch" back through bore, for you are just bringing back into the bore what you are trying to remove. Let sit for several minutes, put two or three more wet patches through bore and let sit for some 1/2 hour or more. Drink coffee, smoke pipe, etc. and then go back and put dry patch through bore. Lots of blue I bet!! Copper coating in bore due to bore not being polished or "broken in." Repeat steps above until blue is gone or very faint. If barrel is stainless, put some Sweet's 7.62 copper solvent in bore and do not let sit for more than 15-20 minutes. If chrome moly, not that long. I tend not to suggest Sweet's for it is potent and if you leave in bore long period of time, damamge could occur. Strong ammonia solution!!

BREAK IN: Go to range, shoot 15 to 20 times, clean with Top Engine cleaner after every shot.
I know, boring and time consuming, but necessary. After 20 shots of this, shoot 5 times and then clean plus use JB compound (similar to jewelers rouge, metal polish, etc. If you can not find JB, buy some Semichrome polish at the local Harley,Honda cycle shop)
Put compound on patch, push rod and patch into first third of barrel-back and forth-some 10 to fiften times, dry patch and push all of the polish out of barrel. (first third of barrel sees far more abuse/heat,etc. than remainer of bore and the immediate throat of chamber is super critical in overall performance of barrel and this you are trying to polish with this process) Repeat some three times or 15 total shots with this process. By this time you should have polished the barrel and if you are using a chronograph, check the velocity prior to doing the above versus after the process. Barrel is smoother and velocity will probably improve/go up a bit. Less friction.
Again, there are various methods to break in a barrel and this one I have used for years and sure other approaches work as well. Check out Mr. Tubbs "fire lapping system" it does the same thing only more organized!! Give it a try. Favor Center!!
dsiteman

Stick a Q-tip in the bore a couple inches and with the cotton ball reflecting light look for copper or dark streaks in the lands. The bore is clean if you don`t have either and IMO a bit of dark in the lands isn`t the end of the world. The fact you get a clean patch when drying the bore of solvents suggests the barrel is clean. Patches will rub some steel off, discoloring them slightly if used under enough pressure. The tight patch on the dry bore might just be the cause of your worries.

I am not using moly on my bullets. They are Hornady Interbonds.

The barrel is not new. The rifle is about 20 years old, maybe 150 rounds through it. Just in the last year have I gotten all of the cleaning equipment and really tried to scrub it out. Before just pulled a few patches through with Hoppes then an oiled patch and that was that. It was never broken in.

Thanks!

You said the gun is 20 years old.

It could have had some light surface rust in the bore. Causeing light poresness or darkness in the bore from light corrosion/rust. Nothing major just enough to hold powder residue . Or maybe its clean and the black on your dry patches is just metal/rust/black residue.

Like OldJoe sayd stick a Q tip or a tooth pick in the bore for reflection with a flood light over head and use a magnifieing glass to check what your bore looks like.

I bought a 1953 model 70 featherwieght that was neglected.

I scrubed and scrubed the bore lots of JB paste too and had the same thing as you. I inspected the bore and it has light rust staining that will always hold black residue.

CF - You are probably working though several layers of fouling. I would recommend that you use a bronze bore brush with lots of Hoppe’s. Run 50 slow, steady strokes with the brush and let the rifle sit overnight with the muzzle tipped slightly down so that excess Hoppe’s does not run back into the magazine/action.

The next day, run a few more brushes with Hoppe’s. Then patch out what you have loosened with a few dry patches. Then, apply Butch’s to the bore on a wet patch. Run up and down the bore to really wet it. Let the bore sit for 6 to 8 hours. The patch out the Butches with several clean patches. Keep up the soaking with Butch’s until you begin to see clean patches with no copper indication.

If you want to speed up the process, then replace Butch’s with Montana X-Treme - it will safely knockout the fouling in no time.

Sounds like layers to me, too. This is one place an Outer's Foul Out helps. On old guns I used to alternate running it for an hour, scrubbing with solvent, back and forth until the alternate layers of copper and cabon are gone.
This last time I used WipeOut alone on a pawn shop Springfield 03 sporter and it took 3 full days to clean. Sometimes there just is no short cut.

The electroplating methods really bother me. They plate away bore steel as readily as they plate away copper.

I have a Yugo 8mm that I think was really neglected. I have found no end to the gunk I can get out, but it keeps getting less and less, and it does not copper foul nearly as badly as when I started.

Wipe Out, Sweets, JB, penetrating oil, all had a turn. But the thing that gets out gunk when all the others are removing nothing, is Holland's Witches Brew. Get a bronze brush, wet it down with that, give it 20 licks, and then push a dry patch through. Keep doing that. Eventually, the gunk has to give up.

BTW, Sweets is basic, rather than acidic. Bases protect metals. It may be strong, but it won't damage steel that I know of.

Lots of good ideas.

Tiggertate,
I wholeheartedly agree. The foul out works wonders. A person has to pay attention to the directions but they save a lot of time.

Hello Denton,
You may well be correct chemically, but have always been told not to leave in chromemoly barrel for very long or it will damage barrel. Perhaps we can get some feedback on that subject from others. Have heard that it will not bother stainless?? Favor Center!!
dsiteman

The problem with Sweets and CR-10 is the high ammonia content. Ammonia is hygroscopic - attracts water - water and an unprotected bore is a bad combination. Therefore, the directions tell you not to leave it in the bore for more than 15 - 20 minutes at a time. If used properly, Sweets is safe.

Montana X-Treme is formulated so that it cleans like Sweets, but is safe like Hoppe’s. Now, if they could only work on the smell - X-Treme will knock you off your feet.

I have been using a product call WIPE-OUT and have had good success with it. It is a foaming bore cleaner and basically you give a 1 second blast down the bore and leave it set for at least an hour or as long as 24. Then swab it out. I does clean out fouling well although it make take more than one treatment depending on how much crud is there. My worst case is a 6.5 Swede that took 5 treatment to get the last of the fouling out of the old bore. Probably had not been cleaned in more than 50 years as the bore was totally dark. Now it is bright an shiney and back in action. The biggest advantage is it a lot less work on your part. I did finish up the
Swede with Kroil and JB for that last bit of shine and to keep future cleanings easier.

Is the gun shooting poorly due to the satins on your patches?. I doubt it its. You have to ask your self, why am I trying to clean down to bare steel?

Just because you patches discolor, doesn't mean your barrel is still dirty.

Take a white rag and some mild steel, and rub. Even though the steel is clean, your rag will discolor.

Asides, a rifle is only fouled if you can see the fouling --- ON THE TARGET. JMO, Dutch.

I've found a routine of JB compound, ed's red, and CR-10 will clean the filthiest of bores, but it can take several hours of elbow grease.

I've also leanred not to be overly anal about a shiny bore. So long as it shoots good, it's clean enough.

How does it shoot? If it is shooting reasonably, why bother to scrub the hell out of it?

quote:

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Originally posted by El Deguello:
How does it shoot? If it is shooting reasonably, why bother to scrub the hell out of it?

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I'll confess right here I never completely get the lead fouling out of my 45-70 or my 357. I'm with El, kevin, and Dutch. No matter how clean you get it, your second shot is through a dirty bore anyway.

Unless you're shooting old corrosive ammo, I don't think there's anything to worry about.

H. C.

It sounds like you had it clean with the wipe-out.

I spoke to the wipe-out guy recently, he says there's no need to take the wipe-out out. It has a rust inhibitor in it. He further states not to put oil in the bore after cleaning, as this gets burned into a "bed" for further fowling.

In my book, if wipe-out gets it clean... then it's clean.

With an old gun, i agree with the "layers" of fowling too.

I have an old German double rifle in 8X60RS caliber. It appears to me that the right barrel was the one shot most of the time, as it has always had a buildup of cupronickel from the old Kraut ammo that I have never been able to completely remove. The left tube, however, is pretty clean and shows little wear compared to the right. Nonetheless, this thing will put a 200-grain handload into an average of about 2" or less, (less than 1" to over 3") R&L, pretty consistently despite one "dirty" bore.

I love Wipe Out for cleaning but was very disappointed in the "rust inhibition" part although living 5 miles from the Gulf of Mexico may be a tougher environment than the inventor had in mind when he made that statement.

quote:

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Originally posted by tiggertate:
I love Wipe Out for cleaning but was very disappointed in the "rust inhibition" part although living 5 miles from the Gulf of Mexico may be a tougher environment than the inventor had in mind when he made that statement.

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Saeed did a "Rust Prevention Test," in which he tried numerous compounds on a rifle barrel. See his results on Accuratereloading at:

http://www.accuratereloading.com/rustest.html

Much as I hate to say it Im guessing that GSP7 nailed it. Probably the same situation with Dentons Yugo too. You cant clean out rust that has become part of the bbl itself. You can get it to look like you did, but its still there. Live with it or get another bbl.