I have two ss short action model 70's in 243 and 308 that were built in the mid 90's. I have noticed some significant wear on the top of the right side rail apparently caused from its contact with the bolt lug when opening and closing the bolt. What I am a bit concerned about is these actions have not been used that much. Furthermore, I have looked at some pre-64 actions that show little or no wear at all. My question is, are these actions softer than they should be or what? Please advise.

Do you mean the blueing hasworn off, or there is measurable loss of metal in that area?

George

It is not blue as it is all ss. And yes, there is an actual groove worn into the top side of the rail on each gun. Oddly enough the blued version of the same erra classic 70 seems to have less wear but still much more the the older model 70's I have looked at.

t.o. Tell me something... is the maiting surfaces heavly "frosted" in appearance? Does the movement have a "grity" feel to it even when there is no grit on it?
take care
smallfry

t.o.,

The stainless steel that is used in firearms is highly susceptible to galling. It's surface is not as resistant to damage as the standard chrome moly that is used for firearms and can sometimes show exaggerated wear and damage much sooner than it's blued counterpart.

One thing you can do, is to burnish the area that is showing wear, and then apply a good quality lubricant, or grease as in lubriplate, to help minimize friction and reduce direct contact between the bolt and feed rail.

Good luck,

Malm

Isn't stainless also softer / less wear resistant that CrMO steel? I've heard this before, one exception being L-W's LD50 alloy which is supposed to be incredibly tough.

Curious,
Todd

You might "paint" the maiting surfaces with a nickle or strait copper anti-seize compound... before lubricating with grease. I apply a few times... rubbing it off each time... then apply one more time... then grease. But I have been known to be a alittle nutz.
take care
smallfry

Todd,

Yes I believe it is softer on the surface anyway. Because stainless is so easily damaged it is often said, that you can screw up a good stainless match barrel with one bad cleaning. Don't know, never tried that.

As a side note: Some folks are under the impression that the stainless used in firearms is rust proof. They are surprized to learn that the stainless used in their weapons is magnetic and will rust. They don't realize that the properties that make it magnetic also causes it to rust...

Malm

Malm,
Thanks for confirming that. I was pretty sure that was true. Didn't know that about care and feeding of SS match barrels -- I just got my first one, so I'll have to be more careful

And smallfry's suggestion is a good one -- Jack Belk just suggested this to me, in lieu of re-hardening a Mauser cocking piece that I cut into. A copper-based antiseize compound will rapidly result in work hardening of the surface, decreasing wear. It sure worked on the cocking piece.

Good luck,
Todd

Todd, you can't just compare ss and crmo ,there are many types of each and there are different heat treatments.I f I remember 4130 and 4140 are the two crmo alloys that are used.Stainless steels are best divided by 300 series ( can't be heat treated ) and 400 (which can be heat treated) The 300 is suseptable to galling and you should use lubricants made for that like RIG +P.

T.O., the "grooves" you speak of on the top of the bolt rail is not wear from you... they were machined there during mfg. I've had well over a dozen SS M70's... they all have had the grooves you speak of.

Brad

Todd... I was unaware that antiseize would rapidly workharden the surfaces, though I am young and dumb. By Painting and wipe(ing) off the antiseize, I have been under the impression that you build up a concentration of copper or nickel.
Take care
smallfry

Brad, What your are saying about machining grooves makes sense because my Classic 70's have not been used that much. If it is machine marks, you would hope that Winchester would have recognized what was causing the grooves and cured that issue early on. As I indicated earlier, I have looked at some 50's vintage model 70 rifles that show no wear at all except for some missing blue. Maybe as indicated in other posts, it's just something that happens with SS because of the way it responds to machining. Who knows? Anyway, the whole deal suprises me because I thought one of the benefits of SS was that it is more wear resistant than CM.

I just examined some of the old (pre64 M70's) that I have and the new SS Classic. One of these old M70's, a 06 Featherweight is still quite new and it shows a wide path of surface wear on the right hand rail.

I compared that to the new SS M70 that has been fired about 200 times and the new M70 has a similar wear mark on the same rail. The wear pattern does seem to be quite smooth and not deep. There are grooves machined there by the manufacturer just as Brad says which could be confused for wear. I used a magnifying glass.

The bolt on the new SS M70 slides easier than any M70 that I have and one of my M70's was slicked by Winchesters Custom shop years ago. A hunting friend of mine who is a top engineering executive commented that my new SS M70 is smoother that his old pre64!

At this point I expect less wear on my SS M70 and for sure less rust. This rifle got wet every day so far that its been in the field and I have not really oiled the surfaces at all. There is no sign of any rust at all.

I am going to buy another SS M70 next year. I am very impressed by them as a field gun. This means that I will not buy another pre64 M70 which has been my pattern up to now.

The anti-seize does nothing directly to work-harden anything.

What it DOES do is allow two parts that *already* have sufficient carbon to slide against one another long enough, without galling, to work harden the parts. It's VERY important that the surfaces are fitted closely to reduce the amount of pressure when you do it.

Try it. It works.

Also---anti-sieze is the tapping fluid of choice in tough or hardened steel. It'll also stop chatter in a chambering reamer...... and make lug nuts easier to remove when you have a flat.

I'll also post on this thread that I firmly believe the currently available stainless steel alloys are NOT suitable for rifle actions.

They're much to "gummy" and subject to problems to suit me.......not to mention just plain ugly.

Brad is right on. I have purchased two brand new Win 70 SS Classics this year, both have this minor scratch or wear groove in the right rail. Although its minor and unappealing, it is does not alter the function of the action in any way. MtnHtr

THe wear ya'll are seeing is the result of the extractor dragging on it. You can stop it by replacing the stamped extractor ring with a milled M-98 ring..

The stamped one sometimes cants the extractor out at the top and that makes the outside of the extractor dig into the rail.

You *can* hit the top leg of the ring with a hammer to bend it in some, but they'll usually break, or worse, crack now, break later.

Its not wear. One would have to really work the bolt and apply pressure to the extractor blade to make the shallow grooves which appear on the new Classic SS 70s. I took a pic of mine, its a new Win 70 SS Classic in '06 which I coated in GunKote. The grooves or "wear" are highlighted by the red arrows, the bits of silver you see is anti-seize residue. The underside of the extractor blade is unmarred.I've worked the bolt on this rifle over hundreds of time and not one bit of the coating in the grooves has worn off although I suspect in time it will. This bolt is slick as snot partly due to the coating.

All the new Classics SS 70s I have inspected exhibited this trait(or defect, whatever) She won't make the gunmaker's guild but still makes for an excellent hunting tool. Function is not affected. MtnHtr

[ 11-30-2002, 11:28: Message edited by: MtnHtr ]

My sons M70 Compact is the same way, has a little wear on the bluing under the lug raceway and barely any on the step up under where the extractor rides.

Malm,

The SS is less prone to rust by a long way, do you agree? I've never heard that SS is softer on the surface and more prone to damage, I thought it was the opposite, that's why the barrel life is extended with SS and most prefer them in BR? Galling, with SS on SS I know is an issue, and have heard as little as ten fast strokes open and closed on a SS bolt rifle can tear up the lugs if they're not greased well.

Belk,

I've heard most gunsmiths hate to work with SS because it's so hard, and it's a pain in the ass to work with over CM. Never heard of one recommend it. I guess where it's dry it wouldn't much matter, just a thought.

Todd,

should have known you stab the guy in the back that helped you out, so much for you innocently, make me puke, "attempting" to make Belk look like a fool, as soon as you said it you were obvious you dumb ass. But you knew "it" didn't work harden the parts, that's why you said it. If you were so smart you'd see how stupid you were.

Nothing further to say to you, don't even waste your time.

Brent---

Stainless as used in rifle receivers is considerably SOFTER than chrome-moly, in most guns, but thats not the complaint. It's "gooey" to work. It clogs files, and rips and tears when milling and is certainly no more rust resistant than *properly* rust blued CM.

I would be a buyer of a stainless rifle if I needed something for salt water fishing. Then I'd add plenty of Lubriplate on the contact/frictional surfaces and wax the outside against rust. Stainless barrels last longer because they resist gas cutting and heat oxidation better. That doesn't apply in any way for other parts.

You need to know that I spent the first 29 years of my life in the salt water swamps and rains of Florida where brand new barrels direct from Shilen were rusty right out of the box and most guns rusted in hours instead of days.

Stainless steel for rifles is a waste and a shame. They aren't needed.....BUT THEY'RE CHEAP!! For that reason alone....and the outrageous lies of some writers, they'll be here a long time. But they won't be in my house.

No need for personal attacks. We're all shooters here. We're all good guys on a quest for knowledge and entertainment.

Brent,

Yes I agree, the stainless steel used to make guns is less prone to rust, but it "will" still rust. The property in weapons grade stainess responsible for the rust is carbon. One of the properties in the stainless that gives it extended barrel life is the large amount of Chromium that is present. Chromium resists heat, and things that resist heat, resist heat related wear as in throats. This extends barrel life.

Brent Moffitt writes: "Galling, with SS on SS I know is an issue, and have heard as little as ten fast strokes open and closed on a SS bolt rifle can tear up the lugs if they're not greased well."

There you have it, the harder an objects surface, the less prone it is to galling. The surface of lead is much more prone to galling than that of a diamond. (both extreme ends of the spectrum for clarification purposes only) As a rule, if it galls, it is soft and is prone to greater surface damage over one that is hard, which would include pristine match grade bores if care or caution isn't exercized during cleaning...

Regards,

Malm

JB,

I hear you, my brother says I should get my Ruger Mag in 416 rust blued, sounds like a nasty process though, it is so nice I don't know if I want to take the jump. They sure look sweet though.

Todd E, ALF, Todd Getson, #8710, TEG, POSseur and who ever the hell else he is decides to be, I'll stop there.

GM,

Thank you for the explanation, makes much sense of things now.

I would have to agree that SS is not perfect for rifle actions but it is fairly corrosion resistant. Its not a cure all but usually requires less babying than CM. The various coatings out there are not foolproof either(they wear in time) but do provide a good barrier for SS againest rust.

As for rust-blued CM barrels, how does one protect the bore from rust? You hunt in the rain all day and fire a shot. After you arrive back at camp that evening you discover rust inside your bore the first inch below the crown in your beloved custom rifle. This happened to me on more than one occasion with CM barrels. I have yet to see it happen on a SS barrel. I still place a balloon over my muzzle in nasty weather even with a SS barrel though.

I like to concentrate on the hunt when I'm hunting instead of babying my rifle. For me, coated SS and a good synthetic stock is the way to go (for now anyways).

MtnHtr

[ 11-30-2002, 23:35: Message edited by: MtnHtr ]

In my experience, SS is significantly more rust resistant than CM, particulalry around salt water. It will still rust if not cared for, but takes much less TLC than CM. Anyone who hunts in wet country should use SS & Synth rifles. Big advantage of M70 SS rifles is that only some SS parts. You can bet your pay packet the non SS parts will rust far sooner than anything SS. SS barrles are also far easier to keep clean, and are therfore a better choice all round

JBelk,

We are sitting here in my camp and by buddy is working the bolt on my SS Classic and then picking up his 1955 M70 Featherweight and working that bolt and he says that the new SS M70 is far smoother than his rifle! He notes however that part of the difference comes from the fact that the follower on the pre64 sticks up a lot more than the newer rifle and it has to overcome that. He also comments that his 1949 M70 is smoother than either. Alas that rifle is not here to prove it.

I am not sure yet but so far we have got wet every day of the season so far. The SS rifle has come thru it very well. I think it's the future and it's here right now. Time will prove this one way or the other but many surgical and industrial tools are made from SS and they last and last.

The extractor does not really touch the rail at all and it can be wobbled and is loose when the bolt handle is pushed forward. This pushes the right bolt lug onto the rail. This is what touches and it feels very very smooth. Both rifles have been wiped dry and not oiled yet.

My new Ruger 416 got some rust in the bore the first time out overnight, cleaned it out good but a little evidence is still there. It still shoots the same and was unaffected. The SS bores have never done this that I've seen so far.

It's a pain in the ass to take care of up here, but I love the gun and hunt with it all the time non the less. It gets two good coats of Rust Prevent every time out and it works well.

I had a SS Ruger 10/22 barrel rust and pit by the front sight REAL bad once, only thing I can figure is the gun case got wet and I left it in it too long.