I have been researching lathes as I am in the process of tooling up my shop to start a small gunsmithing, custom gunmaking shop.

It seems that the opinions on which lathes to purchase are as many as there are machinests who use them.

I have talked with a smith that I know to be a very skilled smith and and he recommend the Southbend 10 or 13 lathes for the only starter machine I should choose.

He stated that they will run in the $7500-$8000 range used and $10,000-$13,000 new. My problem is that he will not say why this is the only machine I should use to start my business.

When I look at the specs for these machines and compare them to the Jet 13x40 and even the top end Grizzly machines, there seems to be little difference, in fact the Jet and Grizzly offer larger spindle bores compared to the Southbend, not to mention much more cost effective.

I know that a lathe is not a machine to try to save money on, but for the price of a small 10 Southbend, i could get a big 3 1/8" spindle bore 40" Jet, in fact for a bit less then a new Southbend.

I do alot of 50 BMG shooting and would like to purchase a lathe that would be able to handle these big barrels as well as the standard barrels.

My question is what is it about the Jets and Grizzly type machines that prevent them from being promoted through the gunsmithing world.

Will these machines hold tight tolerances such as those needed to produce bench grade accuracy?

I need an honest, subjective opinion on which machines will and will not work in a shop producing extreme accuracy minded firearms.

If a top end Jet or Grizzly will produce top quality work, why would I want to drop twice as much money on a Southbend that will not allow me to work on all the rifles I want to barrel, i.e. 50 BMG rifles.

Your opinions are welcome and needed. I am new to machining but I feel I have learned very quickly and and getting quite skilled in the art, will get only better with time I know, I need to know which machines will work, which will not and most importantly WHY they will and won't work.

I really could care less if my machine is made over seas and cost half as much as an American machine as long as they can use quality tools and produce top quality parts, that is what I want, not a name brand.

If Southbends are all that will work, fine, but I would like to know why they will and the others will not.

Thank you for your time and years of experience in helping me select a quality machine. I would rather buy new and wear the thing out then buy used and squeeze the last bit of life out of a machine just to save a buck.

Good Shooting and thanks!!!

50

I use a nearly 20 year old grizzly for work. It's a little loose but like anything if you know it intemitly it will turn out quality work. I also know another guy who just set up his shop and he bought grizzly. Our rifles turn out top quality. Good luck

Many gunsmiths will recommend the SouthBends simply because they are familiar with them. To me the ideal right now is one of the 14x40 Taiwanese machines. I find the 16 and 18 inch models with the three and 1/8 spidle bores to be just a little cumbersome for chamber work. The tailstock is too damn heavy! These are usually a copy of the Mazak lathes and are good machines apart from that.
I am presently using an Advance which I have had for about 15 years and it is just fine. I would like a machine that was slightly more rigid for barrel turning however.
To be perfectly honest I would really like to have a brand new Clausing/Colchester or a Standard-Modern but it probably will never happen! Regards, Bill.

FiftyDriver,

I don't know where you got your info from, but JET Lathes are probably in more gunshops around the country than you would care to know. JET equipment has an excellent supporting network to take care of their customers. You would be hard pressed to find a better value in a machine than that of a JET.

SouthBends, LaBlondes, etc., are likewise great machines, but you can get into a JET gear head or one of their belt models and acquire some great tooling for less than what you would be into some of the others, and have a competitive machine capable of every bit the accuracy as the others. I sold my first JET lathe to a friend some years ago and bought myself another JET, this one a gear head, that I rely on daily for my living...

Malm

P.S. As for precision? This lathe will easily hold .0005 or less...

[ 03-05-2003, 09:57: Message edited by: G.Malmborg ]

Fiftydriver---

A lot of gunsmiths reccomend SB lathes because it's in most of the schools.

I've never owned a SB but have had 4 lathes. Currently I have a 14x60 Summit that's borderline too big for most gun work......but I do a lot of other things so it pays off.

Truth be told a gunsmith doesn't run a lathe enough to be called a job shop, much less a school, where the absolute toughest machines should be.......like the South Bend and Clausing.

You should be able to buy all the lathe a gunmaker will ever need for $3500, tops. Figure another $750 for neat tooling for it. In a pinch you can get by (and do excellent work) on two thirds that.

Ebay is a gunmaker's friend. Buying cheap tools and selling the mistakes. (Read EVERY word carefully).

Fiftydriver,
I was in the same positon of you, although I have purchased a lathe recently. I have one friend who makes his living in the gun business with lathes. His name is Cliff LaBounty and he specializes in reboring barrels. Cliff built a special machine to do reboring of double rifles and he is considered the best in the business for that work and does all of Holland and Hollands reboring tasks.

His suggestion was a Jet belt drive. He did say that you can get harmonics that can be caused by poorly cut gears but the belt takes it out.

[ 03-05-2003, 11:01: Message edited by: Customstox ]

Two things are very important; You have to be able to get the lathe off the truck and in place without damage to it or you, and the lowest speed will be used for threading ( do not buy a 100 rpm lathe).
Good luck!

I use a Clausing and an old Enco that is so good it's scary. It is one that got past the QC people and I doubt if Enco has ever produced another one that good. I also have a 9 x 32 South Bend that while a fine lathe, is completely useless for barrel work. I've done some work with a friend's Jet and found it to be great and with another friend's TurnPro and found it to be good also but not as user freindly as the Jet. Everyone else is right, you really need the bigger spindle bore and for that reason alone I would stay away from the South Bends. They are also overpriced for what you get. I will also go with everyone elses recommendation of a minimum speed of 75 rpm, although I thread most of the time at 150 rpm. It is nice to have the option there.

Look at my site below for some lathe photos.

True, I would love to have a Monarch, or a nice heavy 10 South Bend, but who can afford a new one?? I have a 13x36 belt drive Jet, a 13x40 gear head Jet, and a 9x36 South Bend.

The secret in lathes is to buy one that is adequate, learn how to set it up properly (level and alignment), learn how to properly use it, learn how to take care of it (yes, Virginia, the lathe needs a good cleaning at the end of each day and a good lubrication at the beginning of each day of use).

I guess I was lucky in my younger years, had some neat experience in machine shops, and ran lathes from 13 inch South Bends up to a 96 inch swing x 60 feet centers Niles. Had some good teachers that knew what machining was all about. Most small lathe owners today do not understand feeds and speeds, and do not know how to grind a tool bit properly. My advice is to learn precision machining first, then the gun work is easy.

Be careful on the 14 x40 and 13 x40 lathes on the market today, many are raised 10's and 12's and are sort of lacking in the cast iron department and are "Wimpy".

Jet is good. Not the best, but good. I like the Summit that Jack has and may buy one in the future, I sometimes need a 16x60 capacity for some of the work I do.

[ 03-05-2003, 23:45: Message edited by: John Ricks ]

A PS, if you have a belt drive lathe, or intend to purchase one, be sure to lubricate the inner bushings, that support the cone pulley on the spindle. Most people don't, and the bushings wear if you use back gear a lot. Ditto on the shaft that supports the back gear. The 13x36 I have came from a Job shop, both the spindle bearings and the cone inner bushings were worn. I replaced all and now the lathe runs fine. My 14x40 gear head lathe has over 10,000 hours on it, runs fine, bought it new, and it has had a good lube job every day. My, My, amazing what adequate lubrication can do. Be sure to change the gearbox oil each year on the gear head lathes!!! And pull that end cover once in a while and lube the feed gear train.

I agree with John Lewis, South Bend's are over priced, but I love the Heavy 10.

For those intending to do 50 BMG work, think heavily about a lathe with 60 or so inch centers. Depending on barrel diameter, you may not be able to stuff a 36 inch barrel through the headstock of a 14x40. And 40 inches is really not enough room for chambering a barrel in a steady, when you throw in the length of a reamer and a floating holder. My 13x40 is too small, for the BMG jobs I have done in the past I use a friends 18x80.

Another note, I have a couple of 2 HP DC motors and controllers that will go on the lathes in the near future. (The vertical mill already has one.)

Why DC? Zero to full motor RPM, full torque, and variable at the touch of a knob. Combined with the lathe gearing, infinite speed range. And I can change speeds on the mill while taking a cut, will be the same on the lathe. Another advangage of this, on a belt drive lathe, is you do not have to use the back gears for slow speeds, this translates to smoothness when chambering. Ask Mike Bryant.

Can also use frequency controlled AC motors, but lose the full torque at low rpm.

Something to think about: If you have some funny vibes in your lathe (meaning finish problems), expecially an import, consider mounting the motor off the lathe, on a separate stand and with only the belt conneting. Or replace with a quality US made machine tool spec motor. Import motors are junk and not balanced well. When I install the DC motors on the lathes, they will be mounted on separate brackets, not connected to the lathe bed. Just extra insurance for reducing vibration.

[ 03-05-2003, 19:10: Message edited by: John Ricks ]

The important thing is to get an accurate lathe that is big and heavy enough. I recently spent about 6 months buying a lathe after wanting one for years and owning a small one. I ended up with a good South Bend 13 which had been rebuilt. After that, I still spent quite a bit on some new parts and accessories. This lathe was built in the early '60's. I looked at this lathe and about 5 others which seemed promising. My favorite was a 12" Logan. These don't get as much press but are really good. Most machinists, who run lathes constantly as opposed to gunsmiths who are occasional machinists, swear by Clausing lathes, and the ones I looked at were really nice.

As to price, I question the prices quoted for the South Bend. One of the reasons they are so popular is that they are available cheaply because of the hundreds of thousands built. Based on all the shopping I did, I would think that the average price of a good 13" Southbend would be way less than a Jet or Grizzly new. I paid $1000 for mine from an old machinist who buys and restores old equipment, then spent another $500-600 on it. This was significantly cheaper than the Jets at Blue Ridge, which is just a few miles from my home. I think I ended up with a better machine that will last longer.

Any thoughts on the "Smithy" 3 in 1 mill, drill, lathes for the basement amateur? I'd love to rebarrel and sporterize some of the cheap yugo 98's coming in in good condition.

1. Most of the 3 in 1 machines lack the spindle attachment mechanism and accuracy necessary for fine work.

2. I agree totally with the threading issue. A good machinist may be able to thread at 150 rpm. Most people can't, especially amateurs. Anything much above 50 is tough. All the 3 in 1's and cheap small lathes turn way too fast to thread. For instance ,at 150 rpm, when threading a mauser barrel, you would make an entire thread pass in about 3 seconds. It is really difficult to get out of the threading mode consistently at the end of the pass at this speed.

in the local rag that has a section on used tools
1)Monarch lathe 16" 3'CC $500
2)South Bends $100- $500
3)13 " South bend 4' bed 3&4 jaw chucks, face plate, taper attachment. $600
13" jet forgot the price
Hendley forgot the info....and others

bob

John Ricks - excellent posts and good advice as always.

The best forum for lathe buying is not any gunsmithing forum, but rec.crafts.metalworking.

When I wanted a lathe for re barreling a year ago, I read these:

Some Helpful Tips on Evaluating a Lathe
http://www.mermac.com/advicenew.html

Lathes
BUYING ADVICE
http://www.lathes.co.uk/page2.html

Some of the lathes on Ebay are very cheap, but mostly in the rust belt and cost more to ship than to buy. The difference between wholesale shipping and retail shipping across the country is $1/pound vs $.50/pound. I had a milling machine arrive broken to pieces, and the carrier offered 10 cents a pound for used machinery. Beware.

I got a Clausing 5914 lathe.

After one has messed with old machine tools for a while, he comes to recognize original paint as a good sign.

The Gunsmith Roy Bertalotto from Gunsmith list Yahoo was good enough to take pictuers of his spider he built for re barreling:
http://public.fotki.com/Rbertalotto/machine_tools__guns/

I made one with 4 jaws.