I've got a Bushmaster Target 20" that has a stiff trigger , no creep just get out the jeep and chain to pull it !. I'd estimate 7 lb. as I don't as yet own a trigger gauge ( It's coming ). What is the best way to lighten the pull . Or should I just dig deeper into the wallet and buy an after market replacement ?. I'm not a gunsmith by any stretch ,but handy with tools . I've been told to polish the disconector but go slow and try it. Thought I would ask advise from experienced persons before screwing up !. I can make stocks , refinish , even parkerize to match military weapons . Been Reloading almost 40 years now , still have all extremities . I just never attempted to work a trigger before !.

An intelligent person asks questions before proceeding . Besides a Man has to know his limitations , other wise one becomes worm fodder !.Thanks

3 years hangin around this site, finally a question I know something about. If you want the best AR trigger available, get the Geissele Automatics. it is by far the best. The Jewell is a mess, needs constant adjustment, and terrible slow lock time. If you want a good trigger but don't want to spend the money of the Geissele, get a Rock River two stage. They are usually pretty decent out of the box, but if not they are easily tuned to a very good trigger. Do not be tempted to get a single stage trigger. you can not make a good single stage AR trigger that is safe and reliable. The Chip McCormick is nothing but a RRA that is put into a housing which makes it impossible to take apart to tune. The Armalite has screwed up geometry on the disconnector and you can get as good a trigger out of it as you can the RRA. The K-M is unavailable. The LMT is the same as the Armalite only more expensive. The Knight is decent, but they are as much as the Geissele, and they don't like selling to civilians.

308sako, if you like the Jewell, you can probably find a used on pretty cheap. We sold about 100 of the Geissele triggers at Perry this year, most of them going to replace a Jewell.

John

Hello,
With a little judicious effort, one can make the issue, mil spec trigger (i.e Bushmaster) workable or better than it is and yet be safe and dependable. Looking in the reciever, the spring legs that are on the hammer, kind of remind you of grasshoper legs, can be tuned a bit to help out. Use a needle nose pair of pliars, bend the right leg upward some 35-40degrees.
Note the sharp nose end of the trigger face that is angled. Use Arkansas stone to ever so gently alter the sharp angle of the nose to a slight flat area some very few thousands. If you observe the action of the hammer on the 15/16 family of weapons, as you pull the trigger, the hammer will move ever so slightly to the rear just before "breaking" or releasing. That action you observe is the ledge of the hammer climbing the nose of the trigger and by flattening/polishing the nose, you are making the trip backwards of the hammer less and the effort less as well. Capish!

Naturally you will need to remove the hammer, trigger, disconector, pins, springs, etc. to do this but not that difficult if you go slowly and imagine just how the parts interplay. Mil spec parts are not that expensive and in the event you would screw up, take more material than you should from trigger nose, not a fortune to replace and do right the next time.
Highly suggest that anytime you adjust, replace trigger mechanism in self loading weapon that one only places two or three rounds in magazine in order to avoid any startled looks from fellow shooters at the range. If the results of this work is OK you can do a bit more polishing to suit your needs. Mind you, if you go further than you should, you may well cut beyond the hardness layer and create a quick wearing part-hammer nose. Again, polish is the operative word here with slight angle change involved. When I shot a gas gun/15 my trigger pull was at the 4.5lb. range which was required at that time for certain matches. Good Luck.

One word: Geissele
I'm not an AR-phile, but that's what I have in my spacegun

Eric

...What gasgunner said, he may know what he's talking about here.


If you are shooting rifle matches at Camp Perry, get the Geissele for $275. If you are shooting crows, cans and cow pies in the back yard, get a RR from White Oak for $100.

I tried stoning a stock, single stage trigger and could only get it "O.K." before I took it too far and ruined it. But it is worth a try. If you ruin it, you were planning to replace it anyway.

After Gasgunner has commented, I'm hesitant to throw in my 2 cents.

I would only add that for a knock arround fool proof semistock component trigger you might consider a Derek Martin single stage trigger.
It is basically a stock trigger assembly that has been welded and recut to a geometry that allows a decent trigger pull.
It is well designed and will hold up under less than ideal conditions.
Stock triggers are undercut so that you actually cock the hammer slightly before the sear releases.

Not a good thing for light trigger pull but greatly increases sear contact for safety under less than ideal conditions.

Just some thoughts in another direction.


Other than the above, I'll just throw in a very large "what Gasgunner said" +1.


Covey16

Gasgunner, it looks like you are using an opportunity to bash Jewell to sell your product. My Jewell is flawless.
Butch

LOL, why does everything on this site have to get turned into a pissin match? How long have I been hanging around this site? How many times have I tried to sell what you call "my product". The guy asked for an opinion, I gave him one that happens to be based on a fair amount of experience with AR's and competing with them on a fairly high level. The Jewell is far from flawless. It may be good enough for your standards, but certainly not even close to flawless. If it was, I'd sell them. I have no connection to the Geissele company other than I sell them becasue they are the best available trigger for the AR-15 type rifles. I think you are actually the one doing the disservice by suggesting the shooter buy the Jewell. The RRA can be made to be a better trigger than the Jewell for about $70 less money. You will also notice I made no mention of who I was nor did I post a link to my site. One of the reasons I hang out here is because many on this site do not know who I am or what I sell becasue I don't want to be accused of pimping, and I try to be very careful on this site not to do that. I gave the guy my honest opinion as a shooter based upon building thousands or AR's and shooting tens of thousands of rounds in competition and winning more than a few titles.

Have a great day.

John

Thank you very much John for your opinion.
Regards Butch

It was gasgunner's learned opinion which caused me to delete my Jewel recomendation. I still love my Jewel and would continue to use them in several variations.

I put a JP Enterprises trigger in mine and am very happy. I think they are around $130.

quote:

Originally posted by browningguy:
I put a JP Enterprises trigger in mine and am very happy. I think they are around $130.

I also have a JP single stage .
Been using it for 6 years and approx 8000 rounds.
Set at 4 lbs when I installed it, still right at 4 lbs.
Still has a clean break.
Never had a single glitch.
But those tiny allen screws are still in there
waiting....waiting....





Covey16

I'm also quite happy with the JP mine's set at 3.5lbs and is crisp and clean. Wish I'd known about some of the others first though.

Before you bastards on this sight led me over to the dark side of Mausers, I was mainly interested in AR's, Sako's and Remingtons, in that order. (I know, I know, sit down and keep breathing, the nausea will pass).

I still assemble (i.e. back yard armorer) AR's and/or AR uppers for cops and soldiers out here in West Flat Rock.

I was lent a rifle with a Millazo trigger for a match a long while back. I really liked it and tried to buy one. I gave up after two years. They are built out of unobtanium.

I have never used a Jewell, so I can't comment on them.

If you have an M-16 and want a great trigger, try and figure out some way to get a hold of a Knight. Be fore warned, they are pricks to deal with. The Knight in an AR is pretty damn good. The last ime I checked it was very spendy. There are a couple of Knight dealers that get these in from time to time.

Of those I have installed and used, for what little it is worth, here are my impressions.

Geissele: Nothing comes close. Like having sex with a good looking girl who understands all the concepts.

RRA: Best deal for the money. If you wish to go that route; get one that has been tuned and has the issue pins replaced with hardened steel pins. It does not cost much at all for the upgrade. There is one outfit in Illinois, and another in Ohio that can hook you up. PM me for contact information please.

Armalite: I still have a couple of these that I bought before the RRA triggers became available. I GUESS that they were designed to avoid patent issues from the Millazo manufacturer. There is a tech note on the Armalite web site that talks you through the tuning process. I wouldn't go out and buy one, but if one came on an Armalite rifle that you have purchased, there is no real need to replace it.

Issue Triggers: Nice discussion of how to tune one above by Driver. There is a fellow in Colorado that does a nice job of tuning an issue trigger for a very fair price. PM for contact information please.

Retail costs:

Knight ~ $300.00 (+)
Geissele - $279.00
Tuned RRA ~ $125.00
Armalite - $180.00

Tuning of issue trigger ~ $25.00

Having cut my teeth shooting M1As and Garands I much prefer a two stage trigger for military and match work. I can't comment about the aftermarket single stage triggers except to note that I did buy one once that was a total POS. It is not one of the brands mentioned above.

I've had a J-P in my 20" flat top for years, couldn't tell you how many rounds it's launched. Very good single stage, but a lot of guys like two stage and the RRA is nice on the RRA rifles I've seen.

quote:

Originally posted by butchlambert:
Gasgunner, it looks like you are using an opportunity to bash Jewell to sell your product. My Jewell is flawless.
Butch

I have used all the AR NM triggers in competition. I don't think it's a matter of selling a product. The Geissele is hands down better than the Jewell and clearly the best on the market. Tyr one.

The add I saw for the Jewell said, "Not for use with military ammo."

Uh, hello? I have an AR. What else am I gonna shoot?

Even though I do reload, I got the RRA, and I love it.

Hello,
Lawndart said it well for the triggers out there. I have a Krieger Millazo and it is truly one of a kind set up, but others are quite good as well. I shoot a Compass Lake space gun w/ Krieger barrel and use a tuned mil spec trigger in it and it breaks smooth and sure each and every time. As noted, cost very low.
Glad to see Lawndart has spent some time behind the Garand and the M14/M1A. I read and hear a great many comments about shooting skills and yet the person has never dropped the hammer on one round in matches, either XC or LR yet claims great skill in shooting????? Aint gonna happen, pure and simple!! Until one sends several thousand rounds down range in all kinds of conditions, positions, and using both "irons" as well as optics, at ranges from 200-1000 yards, I am not impressed with the supposed shooting skills. Some are more natural at shooting skills than others, but it is hard work and can be complicated and when someone tells you of their great shooting skills, ask them what their classification is?? That usually brings the boasting to a halt or denial that classification is meaningful. Draw your own conclusions.

I had a Chip Mccormic single stage in a rifle I bought used that had issues, the sear would not allways catch (it worked 95% of the time), allowing the rifle to double and tripple, or just jam up the carrier. I tried cleaning it (you cant take it appart) and even had a gunsmith look at it, but it still had intermittint problems.
I've switched to a standard trigger group, I diddent care for it at first, but with a JP Enterprises reduced power spring kit it is supprisingly good ~4lbs with little takeup, For it's price (iirc $10) I'd recomend you try a spring kit before going to an expensive match trigger.

How hard is to to change the trigger on an AR anyway?

Also, is the trigger on a Bushmaster a large pin or a small pin?

Thanks,
Terry

Hello,
Triggers on 15's not that hard to change out. Need small punch, .152 for small pins and I believe the Colt style, civilian, are in the area of .172 Not absolute on spec. but close. Bushmaster is mil spec or "small pin" or at least all I have encountered are small pin. Colt tried an "end run..." around the feds and placed the block and large pins in their offerings hopefully to avoid any hassles or further legislation. Block prevented drop in sears, large holes would not support pins for other components in lower to convert to full auto.
There are devices made to place in magazine well, lock that in vice, and proceed. Old magazine will work just as well if available and holds or supports lower unit while working on it. Lower hammer, drive pin out left to right, looking at the muzzle, you will see the long legs of the spring on the hammer when you remove. Hammer has a lock spring in the pin hole for holding pin in place and offers some resistance when removing pin or installing. Normal. Drift trigger pin, left to right, remove accordingly. Other parts come with the trigger, disconnector, and spring under disconnector. If you can not remove trigger from housing, wiggle and twist a bit, no force to be used on any firearm in teardown situations, you may well have to remove safety/selector switch which requires removing pistol grip. Spring and pawl set up to provide detents for safety/selector and not hard to do, but more of a pain. Watch for spring/pawls, etc. and do not lose. Spread white sheet out on workbench, floor, table, etc. and go slowly and it will be fairly obvious with a little mechanical ability/experience. Remember it is military and tear down and maintenance not complicated. Would suggest (in non combat situation,) liberal use of CLP on inner workings, these rifles work better if "wet" rather than dry and order some proper,correct, moly grease from Compass Lake Engineering, Mr. Frank White or Theresa. Makes a big improvement on trigger functioning. Good Luck

quote:

Originally posted by driver:
Hello,
Lawndart said it well for the triggers out there. I have a Krieger Millazo and it is truly one of a kind set up, but others are quite good as well. I shoot a Compass Lake space gun w/ Krieger barrel and use a tuned mil spec trigger in it and it breaks smooth and sure each and every time. As noted, cost very low.
Glad to see Lawndart has spent some time behind the Garand and the M14/M1A. I read and hear a great many comments about shooting skills and yet the person has never dropped the hammer on one round in matches, either XC or LR yet claims great skill in shooting????? Aint gonna happen, pure and simple!! Until one sends several thousand rounds down range in all kinds of conditions, positions, and using both "irons" as well as optics, at ranges from 200-1000 yards, I am not impressed with the supposed shooting skills. Some are more natural at shooting skills than others, but it is hard work and can be complicated and when someone tells you of their great shooting skills, ask them what their classification is?? That usually brings the boasting to a halt or denial that classification is meaningful. Draw your own conclusions.

Not quite sure who these comments are directed at, but the only post on this thread that mentioned shooting skill was Gasgunner's .

Before you say too much more about XC and competition shooting you might check into who Gasgunner is.

The Doctors original post was about good AR triggers, not necessarily what is best for top level XC shooters.

There are many AR related shooting sports out there that don't require a shooting jacket and mat.

There are many very good AR shooters in the world that don't even know what a Leg Match is and could care less.

You strike me as one of those guys that wears his Distinguished medal on all his business suits,

Covey16

Crap Howdy Men ; I didn't mean to initiate the Hatfield / McCoy feud . I shall respect all opinions no matter who may or may not be correct. I shall how ever heed the advice of Gasgunner as well as Lawndart. Simply put I like the sound of screwing up or not , my issued trigger . Then purchasing a Geissele if I'm unhappy . Better yet I shall take Lawndart's suggestion on the fellow in Colorado that works them . I figure experience is the better part of discretion. Besides I just purchased a new 308 Savage . Then nice dies , scope , brass , base mount rings .Oh yea and another tool head for the dillon .So counting pennies for awhile so to speak . I didn't intend to shoot matches with this particular AR . So Covey thanks for this perspective , P. S. I do have a jacket and mat . I like the 14 or M1 for that sport , who knows though after a trigger ??.

I would like to thank " ALL " of the responders!. This is what sites like these are all about Personal Preferences as well as Experience !!!.

You may rest assure I will always reply not only to questions but also to the out come or results !. Follow up is the single most important part of any research.

One of my professors once told me
Advice is worth what you paid for it , personal experience is priceless.

Dr K

If you get bored you might run a Yahoo search on Gasgunner.
Might help you priortize advice.

I just get aggrivated when someone with top level credentials gets slimed or hooted down on the internet.

Seen it happen to several top men in several different disciplines of the shooting sports.

Eventually they just get tired of the BS and us lesser gifted or experienced folks lose access to their knowledge and advice.

Covey16