The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Gunsmithing Triggers, Safetys, and Such...Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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How about some examples of this happening? _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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There are hundreds...all sealed by the courts. Why not look at one and see if you can find the five ways it can do it? Defeating legislation through education. There is no safe direction to point an unsafe gun. | |||
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Can these triggers be made to fail without removing the group from the receiver or without the use of any tools? I don't have anything currently in the shop with this trigger system so was hoping you could give a few examples of how they fail. I don't need actual court cases, just some examples that you've witnessed or been able to duplicate without some form of aid. I've worked on a gazillion of them over the years but have never had a need to make them fail. _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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Jack, How could these records be sealed by the courts? A civil suit is a matter of public record. It is when a case is settled out of court that it is kept confidential between the parties. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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I'm not sure what the original poster was referring to, but as a teenager, I had an experience with a Browning Five Shot shotgun which is a case in point. In a dove field, I was reloading the shotgun after probably missing a dove, and when I released the bolt on a round in the chamber, the gun fired. Fortunately, it was pointing in a safe direction. The phenomenon did not repeat itself, and I thought little of it. Some time later, I was returning from a crow hunting expedition and it was pouring down rain outside. It was my practice at the time to carry the gun in the car with the chamber empty and two shells in the magazine, secured by the magazine lock. Because of the rain, I decided to unload the magazine on the back porch, and I opened the breech and tripped the magazine lock, allowing a shell to feed from the magazine and the bolt to go home. The gun fired, hitting the frame of the bathroom window. The bathroom was unfortunately occupied at the time by my grandmother, who emerged unhurt, but not in a particularly understanding attitude, when I pointed out that the safety was on, and had been on throughout the entire procedure. Examination of the gun by a gunsmith revealed that the firing pin was broken and the front segment had wedged itself into the firing pin hole, creating, in effect, a fixed firing pin. Both of these situations could have been tragic, but were not, due to proper gun handling. I have since learned that semi-automatic weapons in general are subject to this kind of malfunction. | |||
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Throughout these threads, there are a couple of arguments which constantly re-surface. The first is that safe gun handling would have prevented the accidents. In most cases, this is undoubtedly so but is not really germane to the discussion as to whether or not the design is at fault. The second is the questioning whether or not there was ever any problem with the triggers in question. Rest assured, there have been Remington triggers which allowed the rifle to fire when the safety was released IF the trigger was pulled while the safety was on. Some may dispute this but, if they do, they are doing so from a lack of knowledge or experience. Where Jack Belk and I disagree is on his contention that the trigger connector, as a component of the trigger design, is the root cause of these incidents. My contention has always been that it was a quality control issue caused by the use of parts which were "out-of spec". I have stated that the trigger connector was likely developed as a cost cutting measure and any other advantages from it's inclusion in the design were just happenstance. In saying this, I was doing a disservice to the designers because it may well have been the other way around; the connector, designed to improve trigger feel, had the added benefit of being inexpensive to produce. The thing is, had the designers simply elected to pivot the sear at the rear instead of the front, they would not have had any issues of "trigger feel" to deal with. In addition, they could have used a vertical contact surface between the sear and cocking piece and eliminated the upward lift of the bolt associated with the angled contact. Other problems inherent in the design include the fact the the sear/trigger contact location, being ahead of the sear/cocking piece contact, actually increases the load on the trigger. In addition, because the trigger contact is on the inside of the arc of sear travel, there is the problem of clearance which the connector is supposed to address. The Model 70 sear also pivots at the front but the trigger/sear contact is on the outside of the arc. The upshot is that I am probably wrong to say the connector was designed in primarily as a cost cutting measure. It was just as likely to have been designed in as a means of dealing with other shortcomings in the design. I think I am right, however, when I say that the connector is not the root cause of the "firing on safety release" situations associated with the triggers. I think Jack, and others, have done a pretty thorough job of selling the idea but I think it is wrong. Now, please don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying the connector is a great idea and I'm not saying it cannot fail, it can and it has. I'm only saying that in every instance I have seen where the rifle would fire when the safety was released (and there have been numerous incidents where I have investigated the cause), the connector or it's inclusion in the trigger design were NOT the root cause. The only case I saw where the connector was at fault (not a FSR situation) was one where the connector had broken. Again, a possible quality control issue rather than a design issue. In this, I have absolutely no stake (although, if anyone would like to pay me a bunch, I'll be happy to take it!) but I think I am right! Regards, Bill. | |||
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No matter if you are pro or con on the issue of a mechanical safety (many of my rifles have no mechanical safety on purpose) if the rifle does have one it should work 100% of the time. Personally I always make sure that any rifle is not loaded and the bolt is up if it has one if it is in my vehicle. We have been doing this for so many years that it is automatic---just have to get used to it. | |||
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