I would like to tell you about my "BURRIS NIGHTMARE"
I have a 35 Rem Contender Pistol. I had a 2x-6x Bushnell on it and it shot GREAT like the best was 7 shots at 125 yds all in a 1.50" group. I figured if I went to a better [way more expensive] scope I could do better. So I purchased a 3x-12x BURRIS. I had my gunsmith install it. When I went to zero it,- it wouldn't adjust high enough. It shot LOW. I called BURRIS and the Teck said it was a defective scope. We took it off and put a 2x-7x Burris on. It shot just fine. I called the Teck AGAIN, he said to return the scope. I did and they replaced it. The new 3x-12x shot in the same place- LOW. I called the same Teck again, he said I had to replace the mounts with the offset ring set, that have plastic inserts. We ordered the new rings, offset it correctly. And it shot all over the target. When I disassembled it I found one of the ring bases fit loosely in the rail. I called the same teck AGAIN. He said it was defective. They sent me a new rail and rings. This scope combo didn't shoot near as good as the more INEXPENSIVE Bushnell. I called the same Teck again and expressed my displeasure with him and BURRIS. After changing scopes FIVE [5] times and maybe 100 rounds of ammo later. What does BURRIS offer me? A baseball Cap, So I told the same Teck I needed 2 of them - 1 to $hit in and 1 to cover it up with. Then he offered me a 50% off coupon on a BURRIS scope. I told him I needed 2 coupons. When he asked why 2? I told him I only have 2 enemies to give them to. A full year later the scope still isn't satisfactory. I call BURRIS and the teck tells me to torque the rings at 80 in. lb. YES 80 in. lb. WHAT TO DO??

Send the scope back to Burris and get a 2x-7x or 3x-9x; you're never going to trust that rig with that 3x-12x on it.

Burris makes very good scopes; I have several on both T/C handguns and boltp-action rifles (although I've never used their 3x-12xLER).

It sounds like you got a loser in the customer service department; ask for someone else next time (or his supervisor).

George
P.S. 80 in.-lbs. is a lot! That's more than twice what Leupold recommends on their mounts, and 20% more than I use with my H-S Precision stocks!

Do you still have your original bushnell, and more importantly the mounts? For starters I would put that back on just to verify the gun is shooting correctly. When you changed to the burris, did you use the same mounts? Scopes often get the blame for mounting problems. Do you have a different barrel you could try?

That said, I don't like scopes with a large variation in magnification, but 4X for the lowest to the highest seems to be acceptable so I wouldn't think too bad of that for now. Can you borrow a laser bore sighter? If so you can look through it and change your view, or simply tap on the scope with a mallet to see if it changes the POA.

80 in/lb is only 6.5 ft/lbs, which you can easily reach by using a bit in a 6 inch long wrench or ratchet handle and applying 13 lbs of force, which is about the weight of a gallon and a half of milk for comparison.

Me, I would try first going back to a different scope that shoots good to verify that the gun is working right, doing ALL of my shooting at 25 yards for starters. Then change scopes preferably using the same rings and see what happens. if everything still OK then change to whatever rings you want to use and check it again. What does your gunsmith think is the problem? Has he tried talking to Burris, he might be able to get a little further with the technicians there. Personally I always try to be as respectfull and polite to technical support people, as they don't know who you are or what your frustrations are, they are just trying to do a job. AND I'm saying this after spending 1/2 hour of my time today talking to a less than stellar support person trying to figure out why my wifes email stopped sending letters since last saturday. I'm also curious about the mount that loosened up, was it tight when you put it on there then loosened or maybe a chance that it wasn't installed as tight as it should have been?

Hope this helps, nothing as frustration as a gun you can't trust to shoot where it is pointed.

George, I think the 3x-9x uses the same pos.align plastic + - bushings and mount.
Mark, No I traded my Bushnell toward the BURRIS, a big mistake.
80 " lb must be "excessive" when the # 10 torx twist off at 30 " lb. Using the same torque wrench I have been using for the last 15 years?]. I cant see myself trading BURRIS for a different scope of a lot lesser value?
The issue of POLITENESS. After changing scopes five [yes 5] times. And 100+ rounds later.
Still having a UNSATISFACTORY rig and BURRIS not compensating me. I will admit I did lose it a little. Wouldn't you?
I did send the original post to BURRIS. They said to call them. But I don't see how they can ever make this right with me? They had their chance
P.S. Please read my original post a couple of times before you make a comment. Thanks Link

What's the problem here? You called they honored their warranty. They offered their suggestions as to how to fix the problem. And you reply with the hat thing?

There is a reason (of course) why the scope would shoot low. If the replacement scope shot to exactly the same place then it sounds like they examined the scope and sent it right back to you. Granted it is frustrating dealing with a situation like that but they have offered to compensate you, 50% off a scope? What were they going to do with the one you own?

I own a Burris 1x and it has never given me any problems from the day I bought it. I put it on my .500 and before this was worried about recoil. I called and asked to speak to an engineer, they put me through and my questions were answered. The guy told me, "well if it breaks we'll give you your money back". That was good enough for me.

I agree with George, call and speak to a supervisor and relax before you do so, they aren't your enemies and they want to keep you happy.

LINK,
I had great hopes for the Burris scope when they first started. Burris had been one of the designers for Redfield. When Redfield had a protracted strike, Burris started his own company and hired away a lot of Redfield staff.
I've had three Burris scopes. A fixed 4x, a 1.5x-5x and a 2x-7x. The fixed 4x cost me so much in shipping charges I took it off my rifle and threw it into the garbage the last time it gave up the ghost. The 1.5x-5x (?) variable also spent a lot of time in transit. I finally got rid of it at a gun shop. The 2x-7x I mounted on a .30-06. I went to zero it, and when I sighted for the forth shot, the reticle had taken a 45 degree list to port. When I got it back it was used for trading material on a Leupold. As gimpy as I am, you couldn't run fast enough to give me another burris scope. Good luck.

Roger
I think I would be just as frustrated as I think would many. I've had nothing but good luck with Burris, and I use their signature rings exclusively. They indeed have honored their warranty, multiple times I hope my luck continues. I see quite a few complaints with Burris warranty work, some may be a lot about nothing, but there are too many
complaints to write it off as a non-issue for the Burris folks. Rob

My 1.5 x 5 Burris has been on my 375 H&H for 15 Years,last week I tryed to adjust the eye piece and the crosshairs turned as well.
Sent it to Burris the repl,: the scope is obsolete take any pick out of the enclosed catalog for 75% off.
Payed $300 for a 4 x 16 Black Diamont.
Leupold is good but Burris may be better
Regards Martin

Gentlemen,

I read all the frustration with Burris scopes and am not the least bit impressed with Burris. For what a consumer has to pay for a Burris, you would think they would satisfy the customer or replace the scope. Giving you 75%off on the purchase of a new scope that is replacing one of their's that failed is rather a bullshit warranty.

The only reason I didn't like Burris was that they were so heavy but now I have another reason. I have never experienced this problem with Leupold and they were right on the spot when ever they needed to make an adjustment. But then again I have not had so much trouble with the 20+ Leupolds I have on my fire arms. Me thinks to stay with Leupold, life is frustrating enough without haveing to add more over a poor warranty service from a scope co.

Burris spends a great deal of $$$$$$ on advertising their stuff but gives very poor repair service. I spent over 6 months and 2 shipping bills to have a scope repaired by Burris. Nothing but the run around when I called and asked about the delay. Never again will I waste my time on a Burris. I always say get a Leupold when anyone asks for my advise. Ter1

I wish I wasn't hearing this cause I sure like the idea of the ballistic plex scope and own a few of them. I e-mailed burris a few times asking exactly what minute of angle the cross marks on the upright reticle respond to. I explained to them that anyone with a ballistic program could easily calibrate their scope to a rifle if the moa were known. Their "experts" don't seem to know what moa is or be able to give me that info. That really surprised me---after not being able to get the info the first time I waited about 4 mo's and asked again figuring by now they might have gotten that question again but I guess I was the only one to ask.

Link---

I went back and read again what your problem seems to be.

In my opinion Burris went way beyond their obligations to make you happy. I think you should find a gunsmith that knows how to mount, boresite, and zero a scope. It's not Burris' fault the scope and the barrel don't point in the same direction.

It's the gunsmith's job to FIGURE OUT what the problem is and FIX it. Not just change parts and raise hell hoping another part will work when the first one didn't.

You don't have a scope problem.....you have a problem with knowing what the scope is meant to do and how it does it. I feel sorry for the folks at Burris. They did their part.

Kraky--- What's wrong with you measuring the spacing? It takes about 3 minutes to do.

Kraky,

You could do you own test to determine the trajectory on the reticle. Put up a fairly large target with one inch squares at (exactly) 100 yards. Put your gun on a real steady rest and count the squares between each plex. Multipy by "number of hundred yards" for each distance, and compare to your load's ballistics. Edited to add: Better yet if you can, shoot it at all of the distance that you plan to shoot and see how close it is.

I would also recommend that everybody that has a ballistic or mildot reticle check out their reticle. My Burris 6-24 Mil-dot is truly a mil at 17X, not 24X like it was said to be. At a long range match this weekend, one of the shooters on my relay is an assistant instructor at a long range shooting school. He said that this is such a common problem that one of the first things that they do in class is compare the mil-dot scope to a measured mil taped pole to check what power a mil is truly a mil.

Regards, Bill

[ 10-18-2002, 19:23: Message edited by: Bill M ]

Jack and Bill--I'd like to think I'm at least avg at math--but what burris sends with the scope really muddys the water. (at least in may pea brain head). Their writing states that "inches of correction at 100 yds is NOT THE SAME AS MOA. They say that one minute of angle is 1.047" of correction at 100 yds. SO, does this mean that the difference between a moa and what you see on your blocks at 100 yds is 4.7% different. In my book it does. Instead of doing all the monkeying around I hoped I could get a straight answer from the designers. When I had a couple leupold scopes done by premier reticles they sent charts that strictly refer to moa which is what my quick target program uses. AND using the program has allowed me to very easily recalibrate the scope on different guns at different ranges.

Ter I spent two years 5 shippings and lots of letters and phone calls with a Burris 6x24. Then they replace it. Their customer service sucks. I own 9 other burris's and have had good luck with them.Well I buy more don't know haven't shot the new one enough to see if it works any better to many other fires burning.

Sounds about right for Burris. I put a 1.5-4x posi-lock on my FA .454 in 4 righ TSOB and the scope completely self-destructed in 15 shots. It took them 6 weeks to fix it and a lot of bitching on my part to make them fix it under warranty. It seems they have a list a mile long of things that can void the warranty, PL too loose, PL too tight, rings not lapped, too many rings, too few rings...They threw all these things out as to the cause of the failure and followed it up with that any of these would void the warranty. I put a Leupold 2x on it-which is all it needs anyway-and have not looked back. That was one of the few, and the last time I will stray from Leupold when I need a scope to hold up and might want good customer service. The Burris now sets on a Colt target pistol and so far, has held up to the tremendous recoil of the extremely powerful .22 LR cartridge.

Hows this for Burris customer service.
I brought a 4-12 power scope,had to be @ 1991
because I used it on an elk hunt in Wy in 1992.
So I don't remember if it was a fullfield or
what they called them back then.
Anyways...I was riding my horse on this elk hunt,
when I looked down at the scabbard at my rifle.
The lens looked like it had cracked.A very hairline crack.If you looked through the scope,
you could not see it.Well I checked the rifle on
a target back at camp.Gun shot ok...so I hunted
with it.Did get a bull elk and deer but anyways
when I got home I sent the scope to Burris.They
sent it back saying that they could see nothing wrong with it.I understand,because you had to look
at a certain angle to see it,so I sent it back again with instruction on what angle it needed to
be to see the "crack".They sent the scope back with a note saying it was a slight imperfection with the coating of the lens and it was ok.
I sent it back again with a note telling them I did not by a scope with an imperfection.
They did finally fix it but I never have again nor
ever will buy a Burris.And I sold the scope.
Leupold has filled the gap.
Jeff

6x is plenty on a .35 rem contender! I have a 2x Nikon on my 7mm08 pistol and I can hit beer cans at 200yds

Aren't mildots often 3/4 of a mil, not one full mil?

At least I think leupolds are like that.

Are burris' dots supposed to be 1 mil?

Steve

Kraky---

Look at it this way, the difference in MOA and three inches at 300 yards is about an eighth inch. Are you telling me that's not "close enough"?

Humidity makes more difference than that.

Once again I'm not a perfect math whiz but the dots aren't placed at 1" increments --if I remember they are at approx 1.5", 4.5" 7" and 10" so the distance gets compounded--especially at longer ranges--to my thinking at 600-700 yds the differnece can easily amount to 6 or 7". AGAIN you are right that other variables will possibly "eat that up" but, I just figured they could have the numbers in a perfectly "user friendly" form. HELL--I'm just a farm implement dealer and they are the optics "experts" and I would think this would be a "cake walk" for an expert.

jbelk

I went back and re-read the original post too? I'm curious as to how you came to the conclusion it's not the scope? I'm not doubting your conclusion but I'm not sure how you arrived at that conclusion. Rob

Link:

My friend, I believe you have simply angered the gods by trying to improve upon a PISTOL rig that shoots 1.25", 7-shot groups at 100+ yards. Heck, I'll buy it from you if that's not good enough, in your book.

It's unfortunate that your experience with Burris has been tainted. They are my optic company of choice for scopes. Granted, I have had some "experiences" with their customer service, as well. But, they did make good on their waranty, and the scope continues to be worth it.

RSY

I'm one of the unlucky ones when it comes to Burris. I have a total of three of their scopes. Two of them are 2-7 compacts. One of the compacts works great - never had a problem. The other 2-7 is the lemon. I've returned it to Burris three times so far. Today, I went out to do a sightin before season gets here. I have not zeroed the scope since I mounted the last time it came back from Burris. Shot it a total of 20 times. Three to get it zeroed and the rest for practice. The stinking thing failed again. Something broke loose inside the scope and stuck to the inside of the eyepiece (rear) lense. This is exactly what has happened the last three times I've had to send it in. If I continue shooting it, the reticle will break like the last three times. I should add that I'm using properly-mounted Burris Signature Z rings (the ones with the poly inserts)and the scope is nearly zeroed befor I make any adjuctments.

Burris does fix the scopes for free but they will not reimburse you for shipping/insurance. I asked. If I add all the shipping costs to the cost of the scope, it's starting to get to be a very expensive scope.

Burris customer service is, how should I put this, lacking. They were very inconciderate in their corespndence and I won't even go into their behavior on the phone.

What I'm planning to to is get it fixed this time and see about a Leupold to replace it. Maybe someone else will have better luck.

At least I'm not the only one.......

[ 10-20-2002, 04:14: Message edited by: cgdavid ]

I've had the same thought as Jack from the beginning of the thread. If I were a betting man, I'd lay odds that the barrel and the rings do not point in the same direction.

As far as I can see, the barrel could be crooked, the mounting holes could be off center, the mounts themselves could be off center, or the scope could be off when mechanically centered.

It would be very easy to see if the scope's optical center is different from it's mechanical center. First, mechanically center the scope adjustment. Then, lay it in the rings right side up with the rifle in a vice and note point of aim. Turn the scope upside down, and repeat. If the point of aim changes significantly, then there is reason to discuss the scope. Otherwise, it's the barrel, holes, or mounts.

IMHO, unless there is a very significant difference between the optical and mechanical centers of the scope, Burris has gone way beyond their responsibility.

I also find if very telling that this simple check was not done before you started slinging mud. JMO, Dutch.

[ 10-21-2002, 17:49: Message edited by: Dutch ]

I guess I was lucky. I sent my 3-12 Black Diamond back because I screwed it up. I thought the little screw on the side was a PL, but it's not. I sent the scope back to have it recharged and make sure the screw seals again. I bought the scope refurbished from Natchez. They sent it back in about two weeks and fixed it free of charge. All I had to pay was shipping to them. I had a friend trade Burris (this was a few years ago) a 6-24 for an 8-32 and all they made him pay was the price difference. My brother just contacted them about fixing the adjustments on his 4-16 and they didn't seem to have a problem.

Like I say, maybe were just lucky. Good luck.

Jim

See if this works? picture is from 35 rem. contender with 2x-7x Bushnell

1st 4 at 125 yds
2nd 3 at 160 yds
180 gr Hornady S.S.P.B. #3505
Powder H322 39 gr.

I think that I would sell the Burris as I had some of the same problems with a 1.5X4. Since then I have replaced it with a 2X Leupold (end of problems). I know have a 2.5X8 Leupold mounted on my 15" 308 Win Encore and all things are good. I guess I only have one thing else to say, "Leupold it don't get no better"

The last post was a jpg of my 35 rem with the Bushnell.

After firing 40 rounds with the Burris the other day. Three grouped 1" center about 2" high. The next 3 grouped 6" to the left. Then I quit!
I can actually look down the barrel and see how the scope has changed its view.

I called and talked to the President of Burris. He seamed really eager to get this problem straightened out. [seems like a nice guy]

I am sending the scope back with the rings and mount. I will post the results.

Maybe there is hope after all.

Dutch

If some of the conditions you suspect are indeed the case, why did the original setup shoot ok?

Link--

I can certainly see how Burris would be very frustrated with you.

You STILL haven't told *us* what's wrong. Have you explained it better to Burris??

".....I can actually look down the barrel and see how the scope has changed its view."

I don't know how a scope *does that*.

What changed? Did the scope bend? The rings change? Are you talking about parralax? Does the scope adjust correctly? Does it adjust at all? Where does it shoot compared with the bore sighter? Are the mounts tight?? Or are the screws bottomed out in the holes? How do you know?

I'd like to help you figure it out, but that old, 'I had it fixed and it's still broke' stuff is getting old.

What, how, WHY?

Dempsey,

Was the original setup "straight" or shimmed? Were rings or bases changed, torqued or twisted? Are we sure the front and rears rings were not reversed, or were the caps turned around?

There are just too many variables to be able to blame the scope for certain in this case, without checking to see if there is a difference between the optical and mechanical center of the scope. It's a no-brainer of a check, that provides more information than starting to "switch things around". JMO, Dutch.

Dutch
I agree there a lot of variables that are unknown, the main one being the smith. But if I had to venture a quess it would be the scope. I'd mount it on another gun thats a known quantity. I've been in this fellows shoes and understand the frustration. I'm not really looking to argue, just that if there are signs that indicate something else I'd like to know. Just part of the learning process.

Dempsey, same here. Wouldn't be a bit surprised if it WAS the scope. I've just learned the hard way not to change more than one thing at a time if you are looking to solve a problem. Sometimes there is no other choice, of course, but it would seem to me that this is one of those cases where a guy could sit down, and figure this out by eliminating possible variables, one at a time. JMO, Dutch.

Dutch,
If you center the scope mechanicaly and then rotate the scope and then observe the crosshairs in a slight orbit of the optical center, how much off center is allowable, why and as long as it did not change at all with recoil etc what difference whould it make then? What problem would this cause? Just looking to understand something new too.

I use the Burris rings with the inserts and they work great, even on my 416wby. I tend to think one could positively elliminate all other possible causes before sending the scope off too, as may well have been done. I just prefer to know myself the why and how also.

My brother is the only one I know of that owned a burris and it was the only scope that has broke too out of all the scopes I've ever had dealings with. They fixed it. I have never liked them and have Leopolds for their reputation on service and quality.

I would mount a known consistant scope, center it mechanically, bore sight. Determine what is off and why at that point before the new scope even gets here. If it means a new set of Posiline rings for the checking, return the ones they send back with the scope. Check everything yourself thinking it through carefully, it should be obvious if it's in the mounting system. No gunsmith required. I suspect the scope, though I would not leap to that conclusion.

First of all, why did the tech say to replace the rings that worked perfectly with the Bushnell and the 2-7 Burris? These rings apparently WORKED.

After this it gets real unclear. You say you installed the new rings and it shot all over the place, later finding the ring to base mount loose.

Was it not able to be tightened completely in the beginning, did it loosen after firing or did the smith do it and you don't know? Why could the rings not be tightened to the base? Did the screws bottom out before clamping or exactly what? Were the rings held forward when tightened?

After this you say the new base and ring combo they sent to you didn't shoot near as good as the Bushnell did. Does this mean that it does not shoot low anymore and that problem was corrected? I suspect there's something amiss with the mounting now.

Brent, a lot of this is nothing more than personal preference; but I find more than about 4 or 5 m.o.a. out of "center" too much. I think it is safe to say that more than 10 or 15 MOA adjustment in any one direction reduces consistency in almost any scope. This includes (small) changes in p.o.i. shot to shot, and incorrect "click distances", where the adjustment no longer matches the exact nomial 1/4 or 1/8". For cheap scopes, I would feel comfortable with about 5 m.o.a. max adjustment.

A lot of my opinion was formed starting with the writings at "the cheap scope page": http://www.charm.net/~kmarsh/sport.html .

I have also started using the Signature (Zee) rings, and I really like them for that reason. With my last Burris, however, I had to shim +20 in the front and -10 in the rear to get "centered". Don't know if it was the rings or the scope. But, both are Burris........ FWIW, Dutch.

Gosh, and here I've been feeling sorry for myself because I can't afford to put a Burris Posi-lock scope on my .454......

Seems to me that the scope is improperly mounted. IF you are using Signature rings, there are offset bushings that allow up to 40 inches of adjustment at 100 yards !!!! When using Signature rings, the scope can easily self center. I could also see where it could be mounted off center since the bushungs pivot freely in the rings. As far as Burris customer service, they've been fabulous to me. I just mounted a scope on my .300 RUM with Signature rings and bases. I used the regular windage adjustable base in the rear. After about 50 shots, the rear windage screw fractured from recoil. I called them up, and they suggested double-dovetail mounts. They sent these to me, along with another Signature ring set for free !!!! What more could you ask for ??? I was having trouble with the Weaver scope on the gun, similar to the problem in this thread. I ran out of adjustment. Once again, I called Burris, and Customer Service (Larry in particular) took the time to educate me about setting the scope to optical center and sighting in the scope using offset bushings. Once again, he sent me a complete set (+/-5,+/-10,+/-20) of bushings for free!!! They seem to be great on the rings and mounts, I don't understand how they could be so bad on scopes, which cost way more.

bowhuntr

Just an observation, I came to scopes later than a lot of folks, due to very bad eyes I made the switch to glass.

When I started looking at scope prices I was shocked, so not knowing any better I bought a SIMMONS, and I've never found a need to change.

My point? I don't know what their customer service is like,

'CAUSE I'VE NEVER HAD TO USE IT!!!!!

B.T.W. I have them mounted on 12ga. slug guns, 7mm. mag., '06, 7.62x54r,8mm. and .22's
When I hunt I carry a backup scope pre mounted in matching rings in my gear.

just my $.02