am going to build a long range shooter thinking about the 6MMxc or 6mmbr anyone have experiance with these calibers?

They are both great cartridges. Out to 600 yards you cannot go wrong with the 6mmBR. Beautifully efficient! Easy on barrels.

The 6mmXC is a pain to to form cases for. It is harder on barrels. It is the perfect across the course cartridge, and is awesome at 1,000 yards as well.

Lapua is probably coming out with a very similar case in the next year that will be ready to roll out of the box. If you have a friend in Europe, or are willing to buy 1,000 or 2,000 cases, there is a cartridge made by RUAG called the 6x47 SWISS MATCH. Incredible brass, incredibly accurate. Actually the 6mm XC is David Tubb's work around to make a 6x47mm SWISS MATCH equivalent in the US. The final contender is the stretched 6mmBR called the 6mm Dasher (that is basically what the new Lapua case will be).

Because of its short, stubby shape the 6mmBR is hard to get to feed well. There are some nice European rifles with purpose designed magazines. A fellow in Texas named Mike Bryant does a nice conversion on a Remington .308 magazine box. The 6mmXC feeds nicely from the get go. I have fired rifles in both calibers. Pure pleasure. Very accurate, and no significant recoil. The 6mmXC is basically a shortened and then improved 6mm/250.

There is an excellent website called 6mmBR.com that has all sorts of information about all these cartridges. It is well organized and well written.

In the end, define you needs and go for whichever cartridge fills them the best.

If you are up in the Pacific Northwest, Jim Cloward can build you a dream rifle in either of these cartridges.

lawndart

Gentlemen



Cheers
/JOHAN

I shoot a 6br and 6brtalldog both have 1/14 twist barrels and set up for 68gr bullets and I use them as varmit rifles in the LR rifles for varmits I use a 6mmrem,6mmremAI,6x284 also a 6.5x284. If you look at the 6xc they mainly set up for the LVD buulets at 600yds and the 6br using same bullet is pretty good out to a 1000yds only problem is the wind. I think a 6x250AI would be a nice round or 6mmDasher on the br case. You may want to look at http://www.6br.com they have alot of good information on both rounds plus others. Well good luck.

Johan,

How much does the 6 x 47 RUAG and 6.5 x 47 Lapua brass cost for new cases? I don't think we can get those in the US.

thanks

LD

Tom Holland,
Very nice battery!

See my post under 284 wildcats. The 6.5x284 is THE preferred round for the 600-1000 yd matches. Bit more recoil than the 6mms, better barrel life than a 243, less life than the 6mm BR. Less wind deflection than 6mm BR. Have heard of brass consistency problems with the 6 XC lately.

what happens if i try this with a 6mm rem. and shoot 107 smks (with the correct barrel twist)?

quote:

Originally posted by lawndart:
Johan,

How much does the 6 x 47 RUAG and 6.5 x 47 Lapua brass cost for new cases? I don't think we can get those in the US.

thanks

LD

LD,

I don't believe the 6.5x47 Lapua is commercially available - just yet. The 6mmBR.com Blog Archive (which is also where Johan lifted the above picture from) has some information about (in)availability of the new Lapua cartridge. Suffice to say, it is still in a very early phase of its lifecycle, and I doubt any ammo/cases will be available in the next week or two...

As you probably know, the 6x47SM is produced by RUAG in Switzerland (RUAG 6x47 info). It is a pretty specialized cartridge, at present almost solely used by the 300 m competitors (in Switzerland??). I have never bought any cases, but if I wanted to figure out how much the cases (ammo) cost, I would probably start out by contacting Gruenig & Elmiger (info@gruenel.ch). They cater to the competitor's market, and chamber for the 6x47SM. I tried giving them a call when I read your post, but sadly they had left for the day. Shoot them an email, and see what they say. (Just a warning, this is Switzerland, so don't expect US-like prices. Probably best if you sit down when you read their reply... ).

If you need to obtain 6x47SM brass (otherwise only obtainable in Switzerland??), I'm sure we could work something out...

- mike

Lawndart-
Sorry for not replying until now. I checked with Neal Johnson's. They sell once fired brass and rifles from Grünig and Elmiger in the caliber http://nealjguns.com/ss_store/HighPowerand300Meter-ss5.html Redding makes 6x47 dies, and Dave Kiff of Pacific Tool & Gauge has reamer prints available. Others are already planning to import brass from Swizerland. http://www.6mmbr.com/albums/album_image/1307803/340387.htm

Mike-
Thank you for standing in as my secretary and spokesperson, much appreciated....

Cheers
/JOHAN

LD, somebody on this 6mmBR thread claims you can get 6x47SM brass from RUAG for $0.65 per case. I have not got a clue whether this is realistic or not, but it is the first price I have seen quoted, so maybe it is of interest??

- mike

P.S.

quote:

Originally posted by JOHAN:
I checked with Neil Jones. He sells once fired brass and rifles from Grünig and Elmiger in the caliber http://nealjguns.com/ss_store/HighPowerand300Meter-ss5.html. Redding makes 6x47 dies, and Dave Kiff of Pacific Tool & Gauge has reamer prints available.
JOHAN

Ah Johan, you had me confused there for a while. That is Neal Johnson's Gunsmithing you provided a link to. Neil Jones is a different kettle of fish - custom made dies, powder measures etc etc.

The 6mmBR.com thread I linked to above, questions whether the Redding 6x47 dies are for the 6x47 (.222 Rem Mag necked up), or whether they are for the 6x47SM, which we were discussing here. I honestly don't know??

Perhaps it would be better if you cited your sources (in this case it looks very much like the following page - given that you seem to have directly cut and pasted part of the text from that page). Either that, or be saddled with any inaccuracies contained in your sources.

Mike-
Obviously you have some sort of attitude problem. I am quite tired of your condescension manors and insinuations. Perhaps you should mind your own business ?

Redding will make dies for almost any wildcat, sometimes their dies are prohibitively costly. Triebel makes dies and reamer for 6X47 SM http://www.triebel-guntools.de/pdf/triebel_en.pdf and Midway lists dies in 6X47 SM (Swiss Match) http://www.midwayusa.com/esearch.exe/search?TabID=2&cat..._keywords=6x47mm+SM+(Swiss+Match)+&Click+to+Begin+Search.x=12&Click+to+Begin+Search.y=10

I know the difference between Neal Johnson's and Neil Jones but mixed up link and names I’ve procured a few dies from Neil Jones. Guess you couldn't resist the opportunity to make big fuzz about this.

Guess RUAG should have named it 6X47 Swiss Mike to satisfy you

/JOHAN

Corbin Shell was quoted a price of $.65 for an order of, I think, 10,000 pieces. He tried to put together a group buy, but not enough people signed up. He is dealing with a soon to be ex wife, so he can't afford to do anything right now.

I think RUAG is missing/has missed an opportunity to sell a lot of brass in the US. The quality of the 6XC brass lots leaves a lot to be desired. Also, I ordered some brass eight months ago from Tubb (Superior Shooting Systems) that has not arrived yet.

I appreciate the leads. Maybe I can sell a kidney to pay for a Grunig & Elmiger rifle.

The 6 x 47 SM looks like a better across the course cartridge than 300 meter cartridge. The 6mmBR is a great 300 meter cartridge, but is a pain to feed.

How are the Triebel dies for quality? From the prices I must assume they are made of platinum and minerals from the moon rocks.

LD

PS I would try some once fired brass, but I have put in a lot of work for little reward going down that path before. Perhaps since most/all of these were fired through match chambers it will not be so hard to size them toward something resembling uniformity.

You know, brass is like girls; once it has been used it is hard to get it to do just what you ask of it.

LD

Johan, you are a great pretender. You try to pass yourself off as knowledgable about subjects, for which you have clearly picked up your points on websites we all happen to frequent.

Instead of citing where your information comes from, which would have established you as an attentive collector of information, you try to pass off the information as if you had initially come up with it. What is more, this seems to be a regular occurrence with you. When caught with your pants down, you resort to attack.

It is a pity, you seem to be an intelligent guy, but insist on acting as an empty suit.

- mike

quote:

The 6mmXC is basically a shortened and then improved 6mm/250.lawndart

Hi, Lawndart -

I'll admit right up front I don't know anything other than what I have read about the 6XC. One of my friends who is still a pretty good high-power competitor has one, but I haven't fired it yet.

Anyway, from your description, it sounds awfully like a set of reamers I have from the early 1950's (9 of them!...chamber rougher, chamber finisher, die finisher, and six different throaters to match specific bullets)...it's called the 6m/m Donaldson Ace.

The 6 m/m Don Ace is the .250 Savage case necked down to 6 m/m, shortened, and improved somewhat.

Guess that would be the about the same thing as the .22-250 necked up and improved, but using the .250 Savage brass which was available before the .22-250 became a factory cartridge.

Glad to hear it is still popular 50+ years later[G]. (Guess there really isn't too much new under the sun.)

Edited to change "Don Wasp" to "Don Ace". At this hour of the morning all my brain cells turn into little pumpkin-coloured basketballs, bouncng randomly, and covered with dribble.....

Alberta Canuck,

You are absolutely dead nuts correct. This is like the girls in high school today wearing the exact same clothes as they did when I was in high school thirty five years ago. The good things keep getting rediscovered.

Short and fat cartridges are inherently accurate for a reason known but to God, but they don't feed well in an across the course rifle. So, dust off the Wasp, and make it out of the more common 22-250.

Being very lazy by nature, I'm just waiting around for brass that needs absolutely no prepartaion to arrive from the UPS truck.

My dad bought a Marlin lever action in the .219 Zipper persuasion. In the late 1970's I discovered that it was very handy to have on the truck or tractor when the ground hogs poked their head up (date farm girls, get in good with dad by helping out a bit, go hunting in the fall). The light bulb went on over my head in the 1980's, "hey dad, this would be cool in a Ruger number one, with the case walls blown out." I was only, what, thirty years behind on that one.

We should look up and compare the dimensions of the 6XC and the Harvey Donaldson Wasp.

Nothing new in this world. We just run around in circles for our alloted time, then fall over dead.

lawndart

LD, I called G&E, and they provided me with the (for Switzerland somewhat unbelievable) price of 50 cases for CHF10.00 (US$1 = CHF1.35, approx). I somehow have a hard time believing that number, so I might call them again on Monday, when apparently Mr Gruenig himself is available to answer the phone.

At present, it seems like G&E do not have any cases available. There was a big flood in Switzerland a couple of months back, and apparently their cellar (where the cases were stored) was flooded. RUAG was also affected by the flood, but whether this included their ammo/case manufacturing facility, I don't know.

We shall see what gives, but until we have a confirmation, I'd be somewhat sceptical of the price supplied above.

- mike

Lawndart-

Treibel dies are nicely finished and almost requires a display box. I have had one set of dies from triebel. My favourite brand is Redding which offer good quality for a decent price. It will be interesting to see how Lapua’s new creation will compete with 6BR Norma and 6x47 SM. I called Lapua’s representative, he said 6,5X47 brass is “in progress†and expected more information from HQ shortly…. No idea what this means

RUAG 6X47SM brass is hard to find here and so far I have only seen two target rifles in the caliber and know of one project rifle that is still “under constructionâ€

You want rifle for competitive shooting or casual target and hunting? A Sako or Remington with a new barrel would be my choice. 6X47SM should work fine for varmint and deer’s. Beliker’s http://www.bleiker.ch/english/sportrifles/standardrifle.htm rifle would be a viable alternative to Elmiger & Grünig. Sauer is currently offering 6mm br in their 205 series.
http://www.sauer-waffen.de/index.php?id=112&lang=en
http://www.sauer-waffen.de/index.php?id=157&lang=de

Cheers
/JOHAN


Mike- obviously the thin air has gotten to your head. Once more you relent to the same pathetic type of manors- mind your own business!!

Lawndart -

Sorry to have unintentionally misled you a bit. It is the Donaldson ACE I meant to type, not the Donaldson Wasp. I went back and corrected my post immediately after posting, but you had already read and responded to it by then.

I have both .219 Don Wasp and 6 m/m Don Ace set-ups, and my fingers often don't type what I am seeing in my mind.

(My theory is that ideas you want to remember are hung on hooks inside your head, like coats in a closet. You can only put so many hooks in there, and as you age, they are all in use for other "coats". So some have to be taken down and thrown on the floor in the corner, in order to have room for new ones. That means you have to rumage around in the pile occasionally to find something you haven't used for a while. Also means its harder to accept a lot of newer "coats" (ideas), even as gifts...'cause it means you have to take down one of your old favorites and throw it on the heap in the corner. -Big Grin-)

It would indeed be interesting to see an original line drawing of each, if one knew where to find them.

In a couple years when I go do the Army tours I will need some recreation to keep from going nuts on the weekends. There is always a range handy.

The 6.5 x 47 Lapua smells like a new military round. It should make a great deer round as well. Especially on a Sako action.

For a target round I just can't get the 6 x 47 SM out of my mind. With the 115 grain DTAC bullet it should be great at 1,000 yards. Perhaps the good priced brass at G&E is the once fired stuff. I appreciate your checking Mike.

Johan,
Wether I get a G&E or a Bleiker will depend on how much signing bonus I get . Now that the initial enthusiasm for this very long war has worn off, the military is finding itself short of experienced officers.

Alberta Canuck,
I will do some research for those case drawings.

Thank you all,
LD