quote:

Doesnt that theory require that the steelquality is known and consisten

Yes, it is known, and it is consistent despite what those that have never bothered to perform the required tests say.[/QUOTE]

Do you state that the steelquality of all m98 is both known and consisten enough to perform the same heattreatment, and get an identical(almost) result, according surfacehardness and corestrength

quote:

Do you state that the steelquality of all m98 is both known and consisten enough to perform the same heattreatment, and get an identical(almost) result, according surfacehardness and corestrength

You sure are hellbent on picking a fight here Jorgen. Are you sure you don't also post here as Rem721?

Look fellas, I only wanted some advise about my T35 Turk (I think that's the number that sold for 69 bucks a couple of yrs ago) I have a nich for it and wanted some advise. I didn't mean to start an internal war. I've been advised to use different actions and do all kinds of exotic stuff. All I want to know from a knowedgeable person if my Turk is hard enough to stand the riggers of a 458 A I.

I'm putting it together, if I get set back then I will send the other one to Pac Met and have it reheat treated. I thank you all for your input, now please stop all this bickering and belittleing. It don't fit our esteem.

quote:

Originally posted by olcrip:
I'm putting it together, if I get set back then I will send the other one to Pac Met and have it reheat treated.

No one here knows for sure whether that action of yours will be okay for what you want. Not even the greats like Bill Leeper or Jack Belk. All you will get is, "it may, It should, it could." I wouldn't build a gun based on words like those.

Here's my advice, if you are concerned, I would recommend sending it to someone like Pac Met before you thread the barrel. They will handle it, they will eyeball it and give you their professional opinion as to the suitability of that action based on their inspection and experience.

I hope that helps.

quote:

Originally posted by rolltop:

quote:

Do you state that the steelquality of all m98 is both known and consisten enough to perform the same heattreatment, and get an identical(almost) result, according surfacehardness and corestrength

You sure are hellbent on picking a fight here Jorgen. Are you sure you don't also post here as Rem721?

I ame absolutely not interestet in a fight.
I ame only interested in knowledge, as i dont have mutch expierience in reheattreating m98. Basicaly because i dont dare to heattreat an for me unknown steeltype, not knowing if it is already carburised, or how deep.

quote:

I ame only interested in knowledge, as i dont have mutch expierience in reheattreating m98

Jorgen,
I'll tell you my experience with Mausers.....compared to many here it's small but it's what I've experienced.

It has been my impression that at least until post WWII the milsurp mausers were made from plain carbon steel....something like 1018 -1025 or possibly even 1117 or similar steels with low carbon content.

Further they have been made in numerous facilities and probably in many different formulas and there is definitely a crap shoot in some of this. For this reason I have mostly confined use to VZ-24 actions and I have also had five K Kales treated as well. Pac Met has intimated that these actions already have the treatment they use as standard.....

Much of what I believe about Mauser heat treating comes from discussions with Pac Met and I went to them as others have criticized other steel treaters as having warped their actions. Pac Met so far has not lost a single action I've sent them.....let me find some wood to knock on!

The late Tom Burgess developed the heat treat specs used by Pac Met by working directly with them and the method used by Pac Met is known as the Burgess treatment....if one sends an action to them and asks for the Burgess treatment they get the process developed by Tom and Pac Met and it's their most common treatment for Mausers.

In another thread D'Arcy Echols also described the treatment specs he uses but he didn't mention Pac Met.....I liked the spec used by Echols and it's what I've specified to Pac Met and they honor that spec.....Bacically it's to carburize .03 deep and harden and draw to Rc 37-39

This hardness is still fairly soft as it's easily filed and easily machined by high speed steel end mills and drills and taps. Pac Met inspects the finished receivers (I only send receivers and not bolts) on the Ra scale and issues a certification report with the receivers returned to me. The Ra reading is translated to Rc because I understand Rc better.

You asked about core hardness and I have never discussed that with Pac Met as it's always been my assumption that it will always be quite soft as the carbon content of the core isn't sufficient to generate martinsite and if one tests the surface for 37-39 Rc it can easily be assumed the inner core is softer as the surface has more carbon than the core. I put great confidence in the work done by Pac Met and Burgess but like the Echols spec more than the thinner depth of case specified by Burgess.

I've sifted through a lot of discussions on AR about heat treating Mausers, added a heavy dose of advice from Pac Met and then attached many years of personal industrial experience in steels and metal treating in one of Americas fortune 500 companies as an engineering manager to form a few conclusions about heat treating Mausers and I now heat treat all of them made prior to the end of WWII even though I have a 1909 in 25-06 that was never heat treated and works fine and even though there is evidence that WWII Mausers are already hardened as well as Pac Met does them.

If this generates a creative and contributing discussion great.....

Hi Vapo
my best gretings.

You have maked an excelent and informative post, wish many more her would contribute at the same level.

You wery wisely have chosen to use a limited numbers of makes of m98, giving you the posibility to reduce the numbers of unknown factors.

What i often question in those m98 debates, is the uncritical use of the terms "M98".

What would happen if one took an action alredy carburised to a depth of .03, and gave it another treatment increasing the depth to .05", and then hardened it. Where is the limit for carburizingdepth, where the action becomes to brittle.


Looking back at many of the m98 we have rebuild or drilled and tapered for scopemounts, i remember a difference from soft as sh** to hard as glass. All of those actions were before 1945, most of them was "forgotten" in Denmark by the employed of Adolf, when they had to hurry home in 1945.
There has never been a tradition for reheattreat those actions,here in Europe even if used for magnums. But mostly the magnums were made on better actions, with an reasonable hardnes from the beginning.
A lot was partly anealed in the areas where to drill for scopemounting, if they were to hard to drill and taper by hss tools.

Later for some years we have handled a few hundreds of Husquarna stamped FN civil versions of the m98. They have all been of the highest finish and material i have seen on m98, and absolutely didnt need any reheattreatment.

After seeing that diference i decided not to spend time rebuilding ordinary m98, as the basic quality of those compared to the productionquality of the FN mausers, was often way to poor.

Later on we as many producers has mooved on.
I basicaly look at M98 as an splendid evolutionary step in many riflemanufactures life.

Best regards

Jørgen

Ps. enjoyed wisiting you last year

quote:

What would happen if one took an action alredy carburised to a depth of .03, and gave it another treatment increasing the depth to .05", and then hardened it. Where is the limit for carburizingdepth, where the action becomes to brittle.

Jorgen....My take on this:

Carbon is introduced into the surface at roughly .010 inch the first hour and each additional hour it is driven deeper but at a declining rate....possibly the second hour would only achieve .005-006" depth and the third hour maybe .004" deep.....it takes quite a while to get carbon .030 deep into the steel.

If one had already achieved a .03 depth and re-heattreated it he might only achieve another .005 in all the time it was in the furnace.

But then again it's why one sends it to a professional treater who has equipment to treat the metal.....this company will first inspect it to see if it's already been done and there are several ways to do it. I used to intentionally over load the hardness tester to see if I could break thru the case and if I did then it gave me an idea of the case depth.....but one can also section an area, etch and polish and look through a microscope to measure the case depth.....I believe that as long as knowing folks are doing the work such things aren't likely.....also if one buys a complete milsurp rifle and tears it down then he can be pretty sure that it has not been heat treated since it was made.

That said.....tell me if you will....you make Schultz and Larson rifles and I'll bet you use a thru hardening steel and I'll bet your hardening spec is about Rc 38 or thereabouts all the way through.....and you have no worry about this.
(and yes I understand your materials and heat treat specs may be confidential)

I suspect the Rc38 spec don't really add much abrasion resistance but increases significantly the tensile strength and the compressive strength needed to resist lug setback...it's really quite soft yet but with greater tensile and yield strength and I suspect if one was to add carbion all the way through a mauser (extremely unlikely) that it would still function well drawn to the Rc38 spec.

I've not had access to a rockwell tester for several years but I'd guess if one tested a Rem 700 he'd find a thru hardened steel at somewhere over Rc40.....

My point in all this is that your concern about multiple heat treatments is not at all likely and easily avoided simply by knowledge of the process and insisting on inspection of the receiver before re-heat treating.

By the Way....How amI going to get one of your rifles here in the US.....do I have to travel to Denmark to pick it up?

Hi Vapo

First i just had a talk with my friend at the heattreatment facility we normaly use. He told that if you perform carbunitration on common steel, the carburation depth would be apx. 6 hr 0.03" and 11hr would give about 0.45" where the proces woud have reached almost its possible max depth.

Do you expect that the heattreatment facility, performs mutch analyses, on 1 single item, where they charge 100$.

My guess is that of the apx 2000 milsurp m98 we have handled, about 40% has ben heattreated originaly,to surfacehardness higher than 35hrc, some so hard that a quality hss drill wouldnt bite at all.



For our rifles witch is a action, where the bolt locks directly into the barrel, we use barrelsteel with a hardness of 29Hrc for the bolt, tensile strength is 100kg/mm2, yild strength 80kg/mm2 elongation a5 higher than 15%. The bolt is gasnitraded 0.015 to hrc 57,(580-650 viggers) maintaining original core data.
the lugseatarea is 29hrc, and it would be worn about 0,001" over 15.000 fierings in mag calibers. then the barrel, with the integrated lugseats is replaced. Wear on the bolt is not mesurable.

The reciever, is not presurebearing, it acts as a carrier of barrel,trigger,boltstop and scope, and provides guidance to the bolt.
It is made of a medium low carbonsteel with added sulpher, for mashinability, with a tensilestrength of 55kg mm2. The reciever is gasnitraded 0.015" to a hardness of54 HrC (550-580 viggers)


At the moment it would be the best way, to come to Denmark to pick it up, then we would also do some hunting

quote:

Originally posted by jørgen:
Hi Vapo

First i just had a talk with my friend at the heattreatment facility we normaly use. He told that if you perform carbunitration on common steel, the carburation depth would be apx. 6 hr 0.03" and 11hr would give about 0.45" where the proces woud have reached almost its possible max depth.

Do you expect that the heattreatment facility, performs mutch analyses, on 1 single item, where they charge 100$.

Jorgen,

What analysis do you need the facility to perform?

That was done prior to determining the recipe for "baking" the parts. Once the original analysis is done and the procedure for reaching the desired hardness and depth has been reached you simply repeat that everytime. About as close as you'd need to come to an analysis thereafter is to perform the Rockwell test.

You asked once about the composition of the steels used in these actions. There is so little difference in the key components (elements) of military Muausers that they can be treated the same for the purposes of carburisation.

quote:

Originally posted by z1r:
You asked once about the composition of the steels used in these actions. There is so little difference in the key components (elements) of military Muausers that they can be treated the same for the purposes of carburisation.

This has also been my impression and as a matter of fact when one looks at the normal variance in the manufacture of modern day steels he sees a quite a range permissible for simple low carbon steels......and all the heat treater ever asks is the AISI designation of the steel.

It has always been bothersome that Mausers were made in so many locations and under so many supervisions that one could worry about metallurgical controls.....but for the ones produced in Germany, Czechoslovakia, and Belguim the controls seem to be rather stringent......these also seem to be the most used of the '98 Mausers