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About these or cut-rifled barrels in general. I read on Kriegers web side that "cut-rifled barrels will in general last longer than buttonrifled barrels" and " that they could measure no difference between SS and CM steels regarding what will last longer.." To all you who use Krieger or other cut-rifled barrels: What is your experence regarding this subject ? | ||
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Ulrik, I have never worn a barrel out and if I had there would be so many variables affecting it's life it would be hard to make a determination as to which has the best life. John Krieger is the most knowledgeable person I have ever met regarding rifle barrels and I think you can bank on what he says. He has nothing to gain by stating what he says as it tends to make one favor the lower cost barrel given the same life. | |||
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quote:Every barrel maker has there own opinion and some may not agree with Krieger or with Hart,Shilen etc. I just take what they say with a grain of salt and get what I want. Tom | |||
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I have kreiger barrels as well as barrels by pac-nor,hart and schneider.All seem equally accurate and none seem more load sensitive than others. | |||
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I have a custom-contour, stainless steel Krieger, still in the box. It is a gorgeous piece of machining, to say the least. I paid a king's ransom for it, but you get what you pay for (I hope). Now, I have been told that stainless wears at the throat faster than chrome moly; is this correct? I will be shooting .30-06 loads through it; I am not looking to set new world speed records out of this barrel. | |||
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I have been told by barrel makers that stainless actually is slightly more resistant to barrel erosion in the throat area. [ 11-07-2003, 22:58: Message edited by: stubblejumper ] | |||
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NRA service rifle shooters,who put thousands of rounds thru their rifles in a fairly short period of time tend to favor stainless and especially Krieger cut rifled barrels.General opinion is Stainless tends to erode the throat less and the erosion characteristics are different (smoother) . I realize .223 is not a 338 mammyslapper but still operates at fairly high pressure. That said,I have an AR15 with a Lothar Walther CM barrel (button rifled) that still shoots very well with 4,720 rounds thru it. If I was wealthy,it would have a Kreiger. [ 11-07-2003, 23:49: Message edited by: covey16 ] | |||
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Funny, I knew the thread would soon come around to us barrel-burners ![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon} I've used and worn out many Kriegers and while I can't tell much difference between chrome-moly and stainless (had good ones of each), I have noticed that Kriegers have lasted somewhat longer than some others. BUT I have lately seen friend's Kriegers that gave up WAY before they should have. My 2 cents Redial | |||
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redial - us barrel burners? LOL. I think the most commonly accepted explaination for Krieger's statement is that Krieger cuts his barrels with taller lands than typically come with Buttoned barrels. There's basically more land to erode down. Both the Cut and Buttoned barrels are essentially using the same steels - 416R Stainless and 4140CM(?). And in fact they're often times co-oping and sharing in the same melts. The dean of Cut Rifled Barrels in the US, Boots Obermeyer says that the 416R throat erosion pattern resembles the cracked mud in a dryed out lake bed, where a CM throat shows roughening like a gravel road. I tend to go with SS in my custom barrels just because 416R rifles and machines easier and thus is easier to create a better product out of (for both the barrel maker and the gunsmith). While there are many variables that influence the accurate life of barrels, and while there are always exceptions, I've found the convention that "Cut" lasts longer is true in the general sense. By my thinking, a longer lasting barrel is worth a premium in price because the fitting and chambering costs are significant and more frequent with a shorter life. | |||
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My bolt gun match rifle is on its second Obermeyer barrel. I'm on my fourth barrel on my M1A match barrel. I've used Douglas, Kreiger and as stated Obermeyer. I've not found a difference in life based on stainless vs. CM. It has been my experience that stainless tends to foul less and is therefore easier to clean. My barrels (all .308s) were losing their ability to hold the 10 ring at 600 yards (2 MOA) somewhere around 3800 rounds. Since I've started molycoating I have gotten over 5400 rounds before the throat burned out. At 100-300 yards these barrels were still capable of MOA at long range they opened up quite a bit. They would have probably been fine short range hunting rifles in excess of 10,000 rounds. But at 600 and 1,000 yards the accuracy degradation from throat erosion becomes very evident. | |||
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My rifle, lost its ability to hold the 10 ring about the time I turned 50. As far as hunting,in my limited experience,cut rifled barrels tend to work better with hard jacketed hunting bullets than button rifled.This may be due to taller lands engraving jacket material more precisely.Quien sabe? | |||
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quote:I have heard that barrels with shallow grooves are better than those with deep grooves because the bullet will be distored less. What barrels are you comparing? Tom | |||
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I would agree with you when J4 jacket material is involved. My direct experience is with 1948 model 70 Win 30-06 vs 1970 Rem 700 308. The Winchester has had twice the rounds thru it vs the Remington and is is far more accurate at this stage.Of course there are other factors involved here,but this entire thread is subjective anyway.I believe the Winchester is more accurate due to the better barrel.Also, I have some experience with shooting match prepared Ar15 with button rifled barrels and mine shoots j4 jacketed bullets well and hard jacketed hunting bullets not so well.Again,not empirical,but subjective. Finally 40 years of camphouse bs and standing arround firing lines talking . [ 11-09-2003, 22:45: Message edited by: covey16 ] | |||
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quote:I read an article about the shallow grooves written by Border barrel and I think it was back in 1995 in Precision Shooting and it was great as they when into the making of Button,Cut and Hammer barrels. I don't mess with an AR15 or any of those type (Fired my last auto when I left Vietnam in June 1965) I'm rebarreling my Win 70 300 wsm that won't shoot with a button barrel in a 5r 1/12 twist. Hope to have it up for next years elk season. Just my limited knowledge tells me that some rifles don't shoot certain bullets as well as other brands and I don't think it has anything to do with button or cut barrels. What brand of bullets are you using? My first Hunter BR rifle was a Hammond built tight neck 308 on a 700 action what a shooter. I have a cut barrel on a 6ppc and it shoots no different when I had a Hart on it. Tom | |||
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Tom Holland Winchester has had everything from factory 180gr Corlokt to 168gr MK handloads.Shot them all well,but preferred bullets less than 180gr.I loaded up some 220gr one time when I had delusions of big game hunting. It didn't like them especially but results were acceptable.Remington had a more mundane diet of mostly 150gr factory Corlokt along with a few Lake City Match and 150 gr Sierra reloads. AR15 wise mostly 73 and 80 gr Berger and Sierra 77 and 80 for match bullets. Nosler partition 60gr and Win 64 gr pp for hunting bullets. Also many Sierra 60hp which are thin skinned varmint bullets and 53gr MK . Like most things, it generally the player and not the song that makes the difference. Let us know how the 5r barrel works out. I don't know whether Obermeyer or Mike Rock gets credit for the concept,but Obermeyers explanation of it in one of his articles makes sense to me. | |||
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covey16, The Nords developed 5R for the Russians. Boots Obermeyer worked out the 5R process for the US to test the then new 5.45 Rounds. He in turn taught Mike Rock who had apprenticed with him. FWIW, Geoff Kolbe of Border Barrels also learned the craft from Boots Obermeyer. When I want 5R it's always Obermeyer. | |||
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Chris F Thanks for the info. To a laymen like me,rifleing theory is an interesting topic.Multi faceted rifling seems to be the latest and greatest. | |||
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covey16 From all that is said Obermeyer is the one that did the 5R barrel first. Broughton barrels new owner Tim North is a heck of a fine gentleman and he kind of talked me into the 5R barrel. I've never used a boattail bullet for hunting so trying to find a good 165 gr is my next project. Tim used one of his barrels in a 6.5/284 and did pretty good at the 1000 yd match here. I've found over the years that the barrel is just one part of the picture. Look at Boyer or Tubbs you could give those guy a bow and arrow and they still could beat you. Tom | |||
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