I find myself lusting for a take-down rifle and was wondering, are there any makers out there for different kinds of take-down hardware or is it all custom from scratch?

I'm not really familiar with the different systems available so if someone would care to educate me somewhat I would be grateful.

I like them too; as far as I know, all are one offs/custom built. The simplest and easiest to make is the H&H that uses a screw into the receiver ring that sets into the threads. Full threads as opposed to interrupted ones. More complex are those by Dakota Arms wherein they make a barrel extension for the bolt to lock into. Others use a catch on the forearm to latch into the metal stock facing pieces. The H&H does not use that. You don't need any parts to make this system; you can see how it is made.

There aren't any pre-made parts to convert a gun to takedown. Its all strictly custom made, and there are many ways to do it. Most systems just use a spring loaded catch to hold the barrel threaded on.

I have one in the shop now that I am adding a second barrel set to. pretty easy to duplicate.

dpcd i have one the same. Do you have a retaining screw that goes in the gas hole?

They are a nice rifle.

Not sure when H&H stopped making them. Was early it seems (mine made in 1913).

Cheers, Chris

There is no gas hole on a Mauser; you just drill and tap a hole. And make a screw.

dpcd:

Are my eyes playing tricks or does the place where the set screw touches the threads have a convex surface? It looks like half a ball bearing in that little recess. Or is it tapered?

Simple, and elegant. Nice.

I don't own it; I would just drill a hole for the screw to seat into; maybe a pointed tip. This one does look convex doesn't it?

CPA makes a take down copy of a 44 1/2 that uses a set screw. You can get as many extra barrels as you want from rimfire to ?

I had accuracy problems with my takedown, until I free floated the barrel.

But seriously... how do folks attach the forearm? Is the barrel D&Ted, a threaded lug welded on, or an integral lug machined with the barrel? Obviously the latter would be best, but could a hobbiest make it work with a pre-profiled barrel?

To the original poster's question; I have a takedown 10-22, but I don't think that system would be compatible with a screw on barrelled bolt-action barreled rifle like the Mauser. Other than that I have no practical experience with takedown rifles.

I've put together a few Mausers though, and have toyed with the idea of making one of them into a switch barrel. Rather than permanently altering any receiver metal, however, my thought would be to inlet some kind of flush mounted latch in the stock wood. (like DPCD alluded to in his first post) I would NOT use cheap door hardware, but idea would be to use something like this: Latch

What are the thoughts on a system like this? I'm sure I've seen photos of rifles with a similar latch in the stock...

Also, if anyone is aware of a source of high quality, precision, flush mounted steel latches similar to this I would appreciate hearing about it. Maybe a marine supply?

Forearm can't be floated as the fore stock has to be attached to it with screws, either directly into the barrel or into lugs dovetailed or soldered on the barrel. This is not a complicated process to build. I like the design of a set screw rather than just a latch.

Thanks dpcd.

Nice looking rifle.

Cheers Chris

I thought I saw the parts in an old Recknagel catalog?

I only have one take down, an old Remo-Popular shot gun based on the 71 Mauser action. It is the interrupted thread principle and looks much like the H&H shown but the lock up is a small "latch"
that locks the facing plates together. Very qick to dis-assemble.
Also take a look at a 99 Savage take-down for some ideas. There are also examples of the whole barreled receiver is lifted out of the stock, which to me seems to be the best idea. An 88 / 100 winchester would be a great candidate for this method as you're about 99% there already.
--- John

Thanks for the info. I mentioned to my local smith that I was interested in converting one of my existing rifles and adding a barrel to it. He admitted that he has not done one before but thought there were a couple of companies that made some hardware. Sounds like that is not the case although possibly Recknagel has carried something in the past, if I'm interpreting all the responses correctly.

SO the follow up question then, primarily directed at those who have done this. Should I find someone who has done this before or is this straightforward enough that I could trust my local smith to figure it out? I wouldn't call him a hack in a way but I also realize that he is probably not at ACGG level.

Lastly, if I do have him do this. Which system or method do you collectively recommend that I request?

Thanks guys.

Rick O'Shay.

As much as i like my H&H 375, there is no method of taking up any slack.

Maybe that is why H&H dropped that method and went to removal of the barreled action from the stock as their takedown rifle.

Duane Wiebe has built some nice looking takedown rifles. I have never handled one though.

Good luck and would like to see some photos of what you eventually build.

Chris

Rockdoc,

Yes, it seems like wear might eventually be an issue with the method shown in dpcd's photo, although probably not for a very long time.

In one of these forums Duane explained a method he worked out for adjusting for wear in some of his takedowns, so it can be done.

Something about banded iron sights attached with set screws instead of solder, which can be rotated when the barrel eventually needs to be screwed farther in. I don't recall the solution for the forend, though, perhaps it is attached to the banded rear sight base?

the nra had a book out that was about gunsmithing. it had a chapter about converting a win 94 to take down. I did one and then shot the hell out of it. it worked well. you might find a copy and check it out for idea's.

Maybe not what you are thinking of but there are many factory and custom made take down single shot and double rifles. There are also the benchrest and savage type rifles that allow quick and easy barrel removal/swapping. I think someone already mentioned a take down style that removes the barreled action from the stock. The AR style rifles can be considered take down rifles as well.

I have also built a 94 Win takedown. I would do a Mauser using the H&H setscrew design for the simple reason that it is by far the easiest to build. Allowing for wear? Unless you take it down every day just to show your friends, it won't be an issue; after all, the barrel does not have to butt hard against the receiver with any real torque. I have built Ruger Blackhawks exactly that way; with a set screw. Now, if you want to use a wrench, just make a Savage collar design, and you could also use a spanner wrench, but those are not classic designs. AR type rifles? Please.
Here is my 94 TD: It is caliber .405, 2.2 inch, a caliber I invented for 94s and Marlins. I get almost 405 WCF ballistics.

dpcd - H&H abandoned that take-down design some time ago. Any interrupted threads method will cause wear and eventually lead to headspace issues. Keeping the threads intact will last longer but constantly screwing and unscrewing them will also eventually lead to headspace issues.

H&H has been using a different take-down method for many, many years. It keeps the barrel and receiver intact. The action and barrel assembly are removed from the stock together as one unit. The newer system requires alteration of the rear action tang to allow it to hook under a lip and replacement of the front magazine screw with a large headed screw having a slot big enough for a large coin to turn.

To take down, the front magazine screw is unscrewed and the barrel rotated up and away from the stock. To replace, hook the tang under the lip above the grip, rotate the barrel into position, and screw in the front magazine screw. You can't get much simpler than that.



Note the tang lip and the area it fits under:

Hell, for that matter, why not just unscrew both the front and rear guard screws. I think they went to the "remove the barreled receiver" method to get increased accuracy with a scope. Not because of wear. I don't think that greased threads will increase headspace to any great degree; after all, how often will you use the system? Once a year? I would like to see some test data on it. I should do a test to see. There is no actual torque on the threads so I can't see how they would wear to any significant amount with less than a few thousand cycles.

The older system, with the set screw on the threads, was used by several other makers besides H&H. I never owned one like that but I have owned and used H&H rifles with the new take down system. In my experience, the rifle gets put together, used, taken apart, cleaned and put away in the takeaway case - fancy or plastic. If you use it eight times a year then it is assembled eight times and disassembled eight times a year. I have seen several rifles with the older, set screw, system where the threads had been pretty buggered up by the screw and it looked like the screw had worn away a bigger portion of threads than it should have. Perhaps that was from stress and loosening under use and recoil but I can only speculate.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
Keeping the threads intact will last longer but constantly screwing and unscrewing them will also eventually lead to headspace issues.

Not sure I follow this logic. If the barrel is screwed on until the shank bottoms out the headspace should remain constant, right? Thread wear may cause sloppiness in fit, but fore and aft location of the barrel is controlled by the contact between the mating surfaces. Please correct me if I am wrong in my thinking...

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Hell, for that matter, why not just unscrew both the front and rear guard screws. I think they went to the "remove the barreled receiver" method to get increased accuracy with a scope. Not because of wear. I don't think that greased threads will increase headspace to any great degree; after all, how often will you use the system? Once a year? I would like to see some test data on it. I should do a test to see. There is no actual torque on the threads so I can't see how they would wear to any significant amount with less than a few thousand cycles.

Take a look at the Newton design.
The floorplate is opened and unscrewed which is the same screw as the bottom metal screw ahead of the magazine. No tools required.

Do you want to custom build a takedown or do you want to purchase an existing system? Mauser 03 and Blaser already have proven platforms. Even the old Mauser 66 would work. I see them at auction frequently. What calibers are you interested in switching between?

quote:

Originally posted by Rick O'Shay:
I find myself lusting for a take-down rifle and was wondering, are there any makers out there for different kinds of take-down hardware or is it all custom from scratch?

I'm not really familiar with the different systems available so if someone would care to educate me somewhat I would be grateful.

Bobster, I was toying with the idea of having one of my rifles, a custom FN mauser in 375 H&H turned into a take-down and adding a 300 H&H barrel. I'm aware of the newer switch-barrel systems available but they do not interest me at all.

For some reason, Blasers and the like just don't blow my skirt up.

And a 400H&H barrel?

Montea; what he is saying is theoretically right; if the threads wear, then the headspace will increase, as the barrel will move forward. My point is that it would take thousands of cycles of screwing and unscrewing the barrel for enough wear to affect headspace will occur. The reason that H&H quit using the simple setscrew method was, after scopes came in vogue, they needed a better method of securing the barrel to the receiver. With iron sights on the barrel, no problem.

I consider T/d a feature on bolt rifles as something you can opt to use as required,
...bit like a car horn & folding roof,, you just don't go using it each time you drive,just cause its a feature on ones car.

Just going to the range and storing it in the safe and for general hunting trips , you do not need to repeatedly disassemble the rifle,
you can basically leave it assembled.
If going on hunting trips where having a more inconspicuous gun case is much preferred, or say where space in a small light aircraft is much more limited,
you employ the t/d feature.....I seriously doubt one would cause adverse wear on the threads in ones lifetime, if used in that sensible manner.

Get the chance to feel the superb fit and lock-up of a Ralf Martini threaded T/d rifle, and anyones paranoia about thread wear should go away.

Of course there are a number of other custom gunmakers who would I not get to make me a threaded barrel T/d system.

Thanks DPCD, I get it now. I was actually in the middle of typing a response to say that I still didn't agree, but then I had an insight:

Given that a takedown system needs to be indexed to a certain clock position of the barrel, as the treads wore the barrel would naturally be pushed forward creating excess headspace. My hangup was in presuming that the torque shoulder would remain constant, requiring simply further rotation of the barrel as the threads worn in order to cinch it up tight. (detrimental to timing of iron sights, but not a huge deal otherwise.)

Conceptually I still think this is correct reasoning, but it wouldn't be compatible with a take-down latching/locking mechanism that naturally needs to remain in a constant location.

Winchester had a take down system on the Win. Model 12 and Model 97 which allowed take up of barrel slack to adjust headspace and leave the barrel in the same orientation. The FN Model D version of the BAR used a similar system. It does require some very precise machining of the barrel and receiver threads and for the adjusting sleeve. Looks pricey for a one off.

Yes, the M12 system uses a set of false threads that spin on the barrel extension and are indexable. I would not want to make that for a center fire rifle. Montea; you got it; as well as the fact that the forearm is connected to the barrel and if you screwed it in further, it would no longer line up with the stock. Still, it ain't going to wear any if at all in any of our lifetimes, nor our next generation. Who likely, will sell all our guns at auction anyway I know mine will.

I think the current H&H style 'takedown'by removing the stock could be improved upon if you could devise a lift and turn adjustable compression latch, styled more like a Deeley release appearance wise instead of a screw. Furthermore, a removable shell that covers the trigger when it is out of the stock would be nice to protect it from damage. If it was machined out of steel, it would offer a huge area for engraving to match the rifle itself and add a 'finished' appearance to the rifle taken down and reposing in its trunk.

For what it is worth: look at the system used by the Savage 99. Interrupted thread.

Option B: look at the system used on Stevens 44 1/2. They drilled a hole in the bottom of the receiver all the way into the barrel threads.
They remove the screw (headless hexhead bolt) and just screw the barrel out. A different barrel can be fitted and screwed back in to a close fit. Then the (in this case) headless hex head screw with a rounded end can be gently screwed into the action. As it seats, it will ease the barrel into proper headspace. Then just snug it down.

I shot BPCR and the Quigley a couple years with mine. It even had a 22lr barrel fitted for practice. Swap out the barrel and stick the RF breech block in.

quote:

Yes, the M12 system uses a set of false threads that spin on the barrel extension and are indexable

DPCD, please take a closer look at a Mod. 12. The adjustment nut SCREWS onto the breech end of the barrel. The similar systems used on a number of machine guns to have interchangeable barrels that can be installed quickly and headspace without screwing around. Service doesn't get any more heavy duty than that.

The simplest solution is to have two identically prepared and dimensioned receivers made up and barreled with identically contoured barrels in the calibers of choice. Then you can use one stock, one scope(quick release rings), and one bolt, drop two screws and change barrels. Failing that, have two barrels (identical contour) made up to accept a streamlined barrel nut, and install them with a spanner wrench and headspace gauge ala Savage.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
For what it is worth: look at the system used by the Savage 99. Interrupted thread.

Option B: look at the system used on Stevens 44 1/2. They drilled a hole in the bottom of the receiver all the way into the barrel threads.
They remove the screw (headless hexhead bolt) and just screw the barrel out. A different barrel can be fitted and screwed back in to a close fit. Then the (in this case) headless hex head screw with a rounded end can be gently screwed into the action. As it seats, it will ease the barrel into proper headspace. Then just snug it down.

I shot BPCR and the Quigley a couple years with mine. It even had a 22lr barrel fitted for practice. Swap out the barrel and stick the RF breech block in.

for the Savage 99 TD if you need i can make some pitures of mine ....

Yes, of course, the Model 12 interrupted thread nut is threaded onto the barrel; I have a couple of them. I still say that that system is not required on a Mauser TD. I was thinking about the very thin walled threaded nut as being weak if applied to a rifle. I don't know of any machine guns that use that system; I would like to know.
Idaho, your option B is exactly how the original Mauser TD is designed.
As for the idea of having multiple barreled receivers; why not just have two rifles; you are most of the way there.

Rick O'shay,

There's nothing particularly difficult about the hardware for a takedown on a bolt gun that would cause you to buy it.

Gary Stiles made tool less takedowns. These were the inspiration for me building mine.

With mine I spun the action on a mandrel and reduced the diameter of the front ring and mounted a plate on the ring, cut the stock through and shortened it the thickness of the plate and mounted the plate to buttstock with screws through plate into bosses in the stock.

This plate has a hole in it to accept the plunger that's mounted in the forend.

The barrell shank was then turned down to accept another plate, forend reduced in length by the thickness of the plate and attached to forend via screws and bosses. Forend was attached with boss contoured to suit barrel, and silver soldered onto barrel, and bolt through a ferule in the forend.

Plunger box in forend was made out of 1/2" black with plunger and spring inside. Plunger was a neat fit in the hole in the plate mounted on action ring/buttstock.

I've fired 600 - 700 shots out of this .300 Wby Mag and headspace is the same as the day I cut the chamber.

Once the novelty wore off the takedown feature I find I only take it down when I have too.

Hmm; a plate on the ring and the barrel. Interesting. Do you have pics? How thick are your plates? That method would be better than just stock mounted plates.