I just put a small drop of light gun oil or 3in1 on the hinge pin on the basis that a small spot of grease will just pick up fouling and then act as a grinding paste (definately the case with my duck gun which inevitably gets covered in mud / sand when out on the foreshore). Or should I actually use a little lithium type gun grease on the hinge pin.

A good "sticky" oil or lubricant is best. It stays put and won't run.

The pin should be at all times covered up by the front loop so there should be no exposed area where sand can actually get ON to the bearing surfaces of it.

A suitable "sticky" oil or lubricant might be Vaseline or as used in most of the gun trade the blue tins of A J Parker's clear gun and rifle lubricant.

3 in 1 is, to my mind, far too runny and that may be where you are getting the problem. Try something that is similar in thickness to the 20-50 motor oils.

If you are in UK and PM me I can send you a tin of this Parker's lubricant for about £ 6.50 including the postage. From the reserve stock I bought before Edna Parker died and the firm finally closed for good.

3 in 1 oil ?? You've been drinking too much of your whiskey !
The loads on a hinge pin are high and you should be using a grease designed for that .It's the same as lubes used for stainless steel .Just like the rear wheel drive cars -EP grease for the hypoid gears. I use RIG +P but I don't think it's still available.

CLP; has teflon in it. I also use the grease that comes with Krieghoff rifles which is a clear sticky grease. Three in one; no. Moly wheel bearing grease, which I use a lot of, would be great.

I just use Lubriplate. The smallest tin or tube of it will last forever + about a zillion years. All you need is a tiny dab.

If you ever buy stuff from Amazon.com, you will find it listed there for $.01 a tube. (Yeh, that's right, One Cent.)


(If you happen to need enough other stuff they carry to make a total purchase of $35 or more from Amazon, the shipping is free on the whole order, no matter what is in it. And you can buy darned near anything from them...)

The best stuff I have found is MilComm grease. It is good to -90 and +400 degrees. It is finer than the pores of the metal and Butch Searcy is now sending a tube of it with the purchase of one of his doubles. This is the best lube I have found. Went to the SHOT show and they had a grapefruit size lump of it on dry ice. It was still malleable.

Thanks Gentlemen, I'll use a small amount of lithium Molly grease on the hinge pin.

You could try Dupont Krytox grease.
The grease is actually a grease version of PTFE.
It is not loaded with Teflon particles it is a teflon grease - and all synthetic polymer.

It withstands very high and very low temperatures.
It also has a high snob appeal at $100/oz.

Below find a good intro into lubrication that may help with this conversation.
I will also humbly disagree with Mete in that there is not a high load between the hook and hinge pin.. There is though a tremendous amount of impact against the pin when the cartridge ignites, but impact is something that you cannot lube for. So opening and closing the gun is a rather simple and low load event to lube for.
Yes probably a very small amount of grease is better than an oil as it will not migrate from the pin but grease will attract grit and turn into a lovely rouge that can gall your pin and hook more than one that is free of any lubrication so grease or oil in a dusty environment must be kept clean.
Some of our doubles and rifles have been around a long time and are working the same as they left their makers a 100 years ago with out the benefit of some modern space age lube, I'm not saying that modern technology is bad but some time we over think things.

Lubrication 101

Introduction
Firearms enthusiasts are the targets (pardon the pun) of some of the most misleading advertisements regarding the proper lubrication of their guns. The purpose of this article is to give a background on basic lubrication concepts, the technology behind them, and some guidelines for selecting lubricants based on facts, not hype.

Before going further, let's make something perfectly clear: with a very few obvious exceptions, firearms lubrication isn't terribly difficult. Compared to many more common objects, guns just don't make big demands of their lubricants! That's right, firearms pose no actual "extreme" situations with which a lubricant must deal. There are thousands upon thousands of 100-year-old-plus guns out there that are functioning - just fine, thank you - on a diet of "3-in-1" oil.

However, that doesn't mean that there isn't something better. This article, it is hoped, will help you determine just what "better" means to you.


Let's start at the beginning...
Why lubricate something? First, to prevent wear and second, to promote a certain level of performance. To put it more clearly, what we're trying to do is to keep parts from rubbing directly on other parts, and to make the interaction of those parts as smooth as possible.

As it turns out, those polished surfaces that rub against each other aren't all that smooth. Looking through a microscope, even the most highly finished metal surface still looks like a forested hillside - with all kinds of huge voids, depressions, and valleys. Imagine, then, what happens when that surface meets the surface of it's companion part! Not only does the combination become difficult to move, but the tops of those trees get broken off - that's how wear starts at the microscopic level.

That's why we lubricate those surfaces. Lubrication works in a couple of ways: "hydrodynamic" and "boundary".

Hydrodynamic lubrication is essentially when the parts ride on the film of liquid (or semi-liquid) lubricant; the lubricant fills all of the voids, and the film itself serves as a buffer to keep the surfaces apart.

This works really well, except when a load is applied and the lubricant is squeezed out of it's space between the surfaces. When that happens, the surfaces grind together and wear. What if we added something to the mix - something that was a bit more "solid" than the lubricant, which wouldn't be easily squeezed out? Well, that's just what "boundary" lubrication entails - adding small pieces of more-solid material to serve as a physical separator between the surfaces, keeping them from tearing each other to pieces.

The solids that provide this service are known as "anti-wear" or "extreme pressure" (AW/EP) additives - solids of microscopic size that are mixed into a lubricant, in order to maintain a protective boundary (get it?) under load. "Moly", a generic term for several molydenum compounds, is one example; others include sulphur compunds, zinc, polytetrafluoroethylene (PTFE, aka 'teflon'), zinc diakyl dithiophosphate (ZDDP), phosphors, boron, antimony diakyl dithiocarbamate (and it's derivatives), and many more. Each of these has certain properties that the skilled tribologist (lubrication scientist) will balance to achieve the optimum lubricant for the application.

Regardless of the physical characteristics of the product, lubricants are a "package" - the primary lubricant plus boundary additives, thickeners (as in greases), and other things (tackifiers, pour point depressants, detergents...the list is endless and chock full of chemical names I can't begin to decipher!)

My exaggerated interpretation of the primary lubrication states.





All about grease
Grease is nothing more than thickened oil. Grease is made by mixing oil with a "base" to thicken it - the base being a metallic soap (lithium, aluminum, barium, calcium), or a non-soap alternative (bentone, polyurea.) Each of these bases have different characteristics, which are taken into account (along with the oils and additives) to produce a grease of the desired effectiveness.

Different bases will show different degrees of water resistance, cold weather performance, stability (the ability to resist oil separation under shear and mechanical operations), oxidation, and "reversability" - the ability of the base to re-absorb any oil that might have been separated out.

Lithium is the most common base encountered; it's cheap, easily produced, and has enough good traits to make it a decent choice for general purposes. Aluminum bases, though, have several advantages: much better resistance to water (and acids and alkalis), better low-temperature performance, better stability, and dramatically increased reversability. Aluminum greases are typically a bit harder to find, and more costly, but their performance advantages can be pretty dramatic.

Grease is graded in thickness by its NLGI number. Most grease you're familiar with is NLGI #2; smaller numbers mean less thick, larger numbers mean thicker. A grease rated at NLGI #00 is almost a liquid a room temperature.


What makes for a good gun lube?
Firearms encounter intermittent high loads, interspersed with long periods of inaction. This means that the primary lubrication need isn't hydrodynamic - it's boundary. What, then, should we be looking for?

Start with a very good boundary lubrication package - that translates to lots of EP/AW additives. We need superb corrosion resistance, along with resistance to oxidation (don't want those lubricants thickening up during non-use.) We could also use some water resistance and an ability to withstand mild acid and alkali exposure (think perspiration.) Low temperature performance would be icing on the cake, and for a grease we want something that won't easily separate under load.

We need our oils to migrate. No, I don't mean to fly south for the winter! Migration is the ability of the lubricant to spread to surrounding and adjacent areas. For instance, let's say we're lubricating the shaft on which a hammer pivots; a lubricant with poor migration would just sit where we applied it, and would never get into the space between the hammer hole and the pivot. The net result would be a poorly lubed mechanism. A lube with good migration will succumb to capillary action and snake its way down into that small space, lubricating everything it comes into contact with.

Sounds like migration is just the cat's meow, right? Not really - there is such a thing as too much. The migration that is so desirable on hammers and triggers isn't really good on autopistol slides; the lubricant tends to "run off", or migrates to the holster (or your clothes.) Ever wonder why your autoloader slide goes "dry" while in the holster? Lubricant migration at work. (What, you think it disappeared into thin air?)

What about greases - do we even need them? You bet! I use the General Rule of Lubrication: oil for rotating parts, grease for sliding parts that carry a load. In firearms, grease is most appropriate for any part interaction that has a scraping (aka "shear") type of action, and will be subjected to pressure or shock. What kinds of parts are we talking about? Slide rails, bolt carriers, and sears - especially double-action sears. (An example of a sliding part that should not be greased is the trigger bow of the 1911 pistol - it carries virtually no load, and is subject to almost no stress; it also is under very light tension, so little that a thickened lubricant could reduce its free movement.)

That's a pretty good explanation of what we need - is there anything we should avoid? Of course - any product that contains chlorine compounds. These compounds, usually referred to as chlorinated esters, were used as boundary additives for many years. As boundary lubes they actually work pretty well; the problem is that they promote a phenomenon known as "stress corrosion cracking" (SCC). Essentially, SCC creates microscopic pits and cracks that, under heat and pressure, widen to become noticeable cracks - and sometimes, even broken parts!

(One major gun manufacturer actually had barrels fall off of their revolvers. An investigation ensued, and they found that the chlorinated esters used in their machining oils was causing stress cracking in barrel threads. When combined with the gun owners' use of cleaning and lube compounds containing chlorinated esters, the barrels simply sheared off at the weakest part - the threads. Like most aircraft makers, the company learned to forbid chlorine-carrying compounds on the manufacturing floor, to prevent a recurrence.)


What about "miracle products"?
Let's be clear: there are no "new", "revolutionary" lubricant products made for firearms. That's a flat statement, and it's intended to be. All of the lubricants, bases, and additives of suitable use are already well known to the lubricant industry. Specific combinations might be unique, but it's all been tried before - if not necessarily on guns.

There are several such products on the market right now that are simply a well-known boundary additive in a light carrier; at least one of them is a chlorinated ester! These things have been around a long time, and unless you didn't know better the products using them would indeed seem to be "revolutionary." Just remember: any new gun lube is going to be made up of readily available components, perhaps blended especially for the requirement, but will not be a "miracle". 'Nuff said!


Cut to the chase! What should I use?
Let's start with oil. Most people use oils that are way too heavy; thicker is not better! Use a relatively thin oil with the correct properties, and use it very sparingly - most "oil failures" I've seen have been from too much, rather than too little, oil.

Frankly, in terms of mechanical performance, most oils "work"; some are better than others, but everything will make parts move for a while. The weakest area of most oils is in corrosion resistance - and on a gun, corrosion is a bad thing! There have been lots of claims, but those people who have actually taken the time to run experiments to test corrosion on steel have found that the products with the greatest hype are often the worst at corrosion resistance. Not surprisingly, plain mineral oils, such as Rem Oil, score at the very bottom of the list.

One product that scores pretty well in corrosion testing is also the readily available and dirt cheap. It also has good migration, a good boundary lubrication package, is the right weight (thickness) for general firearms use, doesn't oxidize over long periods of storage, and is compatible with a wide range of metals and plastics. In addition, it is recommended by at least one real degreed firearms engineer! Just what is this miracle elixir??

Dexron-type Automatic Transmission Fluid (ATF). That's right, plain ol' ATF. The kind you get at every gas station, auto parts store, and even most convenience stores. Synthetic or regular, either will work just fine. (ATF does have a slight odor to it. If you find that objectionable, a decent alternative that is still readily available is "NyOil." Check your local auto parts store, in the aisle where they keep the miscellaneous lubricants and additives.)

If we were to spec out a "best in class" oil, it would probably be something like Lubriplate's FMO-AW oil, specifically the 350-AW weight. This is an oil designed with very high boundary protection and very high corrosion resistance - especially in the presence of acids, alkalis, and moisture. It is darned near tailor-made for our use!

I'm aware of at least one large coastal police agency using FMO-AW, and they report complete satisfaction with its performance. Unfortunately, it's not (as of this writing) packaged in consumer friendly quantities - 1 gallon pails being the smallest available. If, however, you have a food service equipment dealer near you, they may agree to sell you a small quantity - FMO-AW is designed for food handling equipment. (Ask nicely and bring your own bottle.)

What about grease? Remember that you should grease sliding parts that carry a load - slide rails, sears, and bolt carriers. Again, remember to start with your criteria: must have superb boundary lubricants (particularly when used on double-action mechanisms), preferably of aluminum base, good cold working characteristics, resistant to acids/alkalis and water (especially water), and preferably of a non-staining variety (black grease stains look awful on clothing!)

Many people use Brownell's Action Lube as a popular general purpose grease - it has wonderful boundary lubricants (in fact, it is mostly composed of molybdenum compounds in a light grease base) and great shear resistance. It is superb on action parts, and works fairly well on slide rails - as long as you don't mind black stains. Yuck! It does exhibit poor oxidation characteristics and reversibility; though I have no hard data, I suspect it also doesn't resist water or pH changes all that well. For internal parts, which are protected by housings, it is terrific and gives actions a unique 'buttery' feel. I use a lot of it to lubricate sears and rebound slides, but for all other needs there is a much better choice.

For such things as autoloader slides and rifle bolts, Lubriplate "SFL" NLGI #0 grease is my choice. In my testing it's proven itself superior as a general lubricant. It is white, aluminum-based, low odor, has superb boundary lubricants, and is designed specifically for use in environments that encounter a huge temperature range. It's also resistant to water washout and acid/alkali environments, has great shear resistance, and doesn't oxidize like lithium greases will. As an all-around grease I've found nothing better. It's available from www.lubriplate.com, in their online store. It comes in a 14oz can which will last you for years - no matter how many guns you have!

(Lubriplate also makes SFL in heavier grades, such as NLGI #1. While thicker than the #0, it is still a pretty light grease, and would be my recommendation for very hot climates. The NLGI #0 is a better choice for most of the United States.)


But what about......?
Everyone has their own little "secret". If it works, is there anything wrong with it? Let's find out...

Motor oils: Generally good boundary lubrication (particularly the Havoline formulations), but very poor corrosion resistance and poor resistance to open-air oxidation. In addition, their pour-point additives often contain benzene compounds, which aren't a good thing to have next to your skin on a regular basis! ATF performs better for firearms use on every count, even if it is a tad more expensive. (ATF is still 1/10 to 1/100th the cost of a specialty "gun oil"!)

Gear oils: Too thick for the application. In addition, they contain tackifiers which gives them poor migration and lead to oxidization in open air, rendering them even more "sticky" - pretty much what we don't want. (Some folks use it on their slide rails because it's thicker and won't migrate easily; a light grease is a far better choice.) If you really want a thicker oil with all the good characteristics we've covered, but is still cheap, mix ATF and STP Oil Treatment in a 40/60 ratio. Far better than gear oil on every count - but I'd still rather have a good NLGI #0 grease.

WD-40: WD-40 was never meant to be a lubricant - it was designed as a moisture displacer. It's far too light for any load protection, has incredibly poor corrosion resistance, contains zero boundary lubricants, and rapidly oxidizes to form a sickly yellow varnish (hint: this is not good for delicate internal lockwork.) There are those who will defend this stuff vehemently, but then again you can still find people who think smokeless powder is a passing fad. Just. Don't.

Automotive motor oil additives: Usually a boundary additive in some sort of light mineral oil carrier, they usually lack corrosion protection and often oxidize rapidly; some have poor migration characteristics and rely on the oil to which they'll be added to provide those things. There are better and cheaper alternatives, though when mixed with an appropriate oil additives do have some merit (see above.) By themselves? No.

Silicone spray: Right up there with WD-40, but at least it'll shed water while your parts grind themselves into little shavings!

Graphite: (sprays, powders) Graphite is a crystalline product which is actually very slightly abrasive. It offers no appreciable benefit other than being dry; a lube with a good boundary lubricant package can be wiped dry to the touch and still provide better lubrication and protection than graphite. Save it for your keys and padlocks.

Finally, note that the foregoing is a layman's understanding of lubrication technology. I don't pretend to be an expert, just a well-informed amateur hoping to disseminate some arcane knowledge. Use at your own risk!

I use Remington Hinge Pin Grease that I bought 20 or so years ago. Not sure if they still make it.

The last time I ventured into a Cabela's I pick up a bottle of an oil called Clenzoil made for this purpose and it seems to work very well.

I use a very light coating of chassis lube grease.
A small clean plastic pill bottle filled with it some years still supplys more than enough.

A very light coating onthe sides of the bbl lugs, face of the breech and forend hook engagement also help. No more there than is left after wiping it back off with a clean cloth.

The surfaces need to be kept clean. So cleaning them well and re-lubing is necessary.

Most people use too much lube !
Interesting comments about SCC. I've dealt with it but only for stainless steels + chloride. Brass of course I've seen many times .Factory ammo with unannealed case necks is a good example.
Have you dealt with boron lubes ? That at least is white.
The FBI studied non-gun lubes and found that Mobil 1 is the best for guns. I'm using Mobil turbine oil which is highly refined and has the right additive packages for guns.
My comments about hinge pin greases are from the available ones specifically sold for hinge pins and stainless steel.
Most people use too much lube .

Mr Zephyr- That is an exceptionally well- written "white paper" on lubrication! My compliments on taking the technical side to the practical. I'm an engineer, and knew a goodly amount of the technical side, but you've done a masterful job of putting into the context we need for our application. Exactly why I joined this forum.

Doug

I would recommend a bit of plain old wheel bearing grease. I put a bit on the other bearing surfaces of the lumps as well.
The problem with using any "oil" or ATF is that it creeps. As the majority of a doubles life is spent standing up in the gun cabinet or safe, the oil eventually soaks into the stock. This deteriorates the wood and the value of the gun.

Dulltool17
Would love to take credit for the above treatise but I can't. In my haste to cut and paste I cut off Grant Cunningham's name who is responsible for it creation.
To prevent migration from the possibility of over oiling most of the guns that are standing in my safe are stored barrels down..

Lithium grease is what I use on all my hinged rifles. Just keep the hinge surfaces glean and reapply as needed.

There is always the STOS (Slicker Than Owl Shit) by Possness Warren. It was developed for heavy use by trap and skeet shooters.

As AC stated above Lubriplate is good. We use it on the centers of our gear hobbing machines. My only caveat to it is that it gets on everything!

Thought I was reading in CYCLE WORLD an article by Kevin Cameron when I read the post from Zephyr. So nice to read some good information once in a while...............keep up the education

Thanks for posting the article, Zephyr. I hit on ATF probably 20 years ago and have recommended it ever since. Problem is, many custmers think it's too cheap for their pricey guns, and fancy-marketed "Gun" oils must be better because they cost more.

Some of my guns are so old that I use Sperm Whale oil.

Actually I do still have a bottle of it and it does work well. But a light smear of modern grease seems to do just as well.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
. . . . I also use the grease that comes with Krieghoff rifles which is a clear sticky grease. . . . .

Been using the same on all my doubles since I bought my first Kreighoff K80 almost 30yrs ago.

quote:

Some of my guns are so old that I use Sperm Whale oil.

Do we call you Ishmael? Do you buy it from Starbuck's?

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Some of my guns are so old that I use Sperm Whale oil.

Actually I do still have a bottle of it and it does work well. But a light smear of modern grease seems to do just as well.

Back in the Day, I used Sperm Whale Oil on the triggers of my Custom Clark Accurized 1911's for Bullseye shooting...

On a double rifle just use any good heavy gun grease. I like the ones that come in a syringe, as they are easy to apply. Also I know of several people that use any of the good heavy duty automotive wheel bearing greases.

IF you find yourself with out any grease, then yes use some kind of oil.

quote:

Originally posted by Toomany Tools:
Thanks for posting the article, Zephyr. I hit on ATF probably 20 years ago and have recommended it ever since.

I am surprised by this. I did a corrosion test a few years ago. I treated 4 pieces of steel(cutoffs from Talley bolt handles) with different oils. Two were gun oils and the other were Chevron ATF and regular olive oil. Olive oil came in second, slightly ahead of one of the gun oils.

The ATF came in a distant 4th. I wouldn't trust that stuff to protect anything.

Guess I'm just a dumbass.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by Toomany Tools:
Thanks for posting the article, Zephyr. I hit on ATF probably 20 years ago and have recommended it ever since.

I am surprised by this. I did a corrosion test a few years ago. I treated 4 pieces of steel(cutoffs from Talley bolt handles) with different oils. Two were gun oils and the other were Chevron ATF and regular olive oil. Olive oil came in second, slightly ahead of one of the gun oils.

The ATF came in a distant 4th. I wouldn't trust that stuff to protect anything.

I've been using ATF for a long time as well. As a lubricant, not a protectant.. I do believe it was developed to replace sperm oil that was used in early automatic transmissions.

So Jason, which do you prefer, VOO or EVOO? Sicilian or Sardinian?

The Brits would take Petroleum Jelly and mix it with enough Petrol until it dissolved then flush and action with it the petrol would dissolve leaving behind the petroleum jelly...

One of my favorite topics on another forum was a gentleman of self importance holding court on how he used nothing but "Whale Sperm Oil" on his actions I politely gave him a few chances to rewrite the sentence but he did not get it...

Never could figure out how they got the Whale Sperm......

How many men does it take to circumcise a whale??
Four Skindivers

quote:

Originally posted by Toomany Tools:
Thanks for posting the article, Zephyr. I hit on ATF probably 20 years ago and have recommended it ever since. Problem is, many custmers think it's too cheap for their pricey guns, and fancy-marketed "Gun" oils must be better because they cost more.

Got in a discussion with a fellow shooter after an IPSC shoot about cleaning powder residue and carbon from frame and slide after a shoot, he went on to say how he only used some fancy high priced solution on his Race Gun. I alluded that Mineral Spirits would do the same for a fraction of the price He rolled his eyes and said "Dude you can put that on your gun if you want" and walked away.

Wilkinson used whale oil to quench things like the Fairbirn-sykes knife through WWII.
EVOO is expensive because it's ever more difficult to find virgins.

Looks like I stumbled on the Humor forum by mistake. Could be the participants were getting lubed themselves?

Dulltool ,There's lots of humor in whales.
CA had a dead whale on the beach some years ago.Someone thought it would be a good idea to use explosives ! It didn't work quite like they thought.What it did do was throw a huge chunk of whale about 300 yds IIRC. It landed on top of a Cadillac !!
Somewhere it's on video !
In Japan a dead whale was dead for a while and they put it on a flatbed truck. As they drove through the town's buy shopping street the things that were working inside the whale finally BLEW !
The town probably still smells !
I suppose that's on video also. My experience is only with a small one, beluga, with no humor .I ate some and found the blubber should last at least a week of chewing !

LMAO!!

An English gunmaker on another forum reckoned white lithium was the go, that he had never had to rejoint a gun or rifle where it had been used continuously.

I haven't found any to buy, so far. Has it been around long enough for many guns lubricated with it to wear out, anyway?

It's been around a very long time .Lithium soap is used as a thickener.There are different types. Google will tell you where !!