Chaps,

I require an expert to help me out with my double VC 500. I am a PH in Zambia and this gun will not be able to be exported.

My son asked if he could fire the double and he set up a target. I gave him one round and told him to load it in the right chamber which he did.

Note I was busy and did not watch what he was doing. He has fired the double a couple of times before.

Having shot I noticed he was struggling to break the action. It was stiff and I had to force it. I was surprised to notice the cartridge did not eject and had to remove it manually.

PHOTO 1 and 2 show the splinter end and note the levers (female) are off set. One being ever so slightly twisted.





PHOTO 3 and 4 shows some damage to one of the levers (male).





I apologise for lack of terminology. All I can think is that he did not close the action fully?

What I need to really good advice and the only way I am going to get this fixed is here in Zambia. We have a fairly good gunsmith here and I am very practical.

It would seem that I will need some replacement parts?

Please comment/advise/inform or email me direct.

Thanks in advance.

Andrew Baldry

andrew - if i am seeing it right, this should be easily fixed. build up the area with a tig welder and then cut it back to where it should be.

A Webley screw-grip,perhaps...?

Sorry, just had to! Currently preparing to be slaughtered by the AR double rifle "aristocracy"....

Andrew,
Have you contacted the dealer or the factory and asked for their help yet?

Andrew
Check your email.

Thanks for all those who contacted me.

So the lesson learned is?

One of the cocking sears is bent.

I can't imagine those parts being damaged under normal circumstances. IMHO (humble) it suggests an extremely hard extraction due the case sticking in the chamber has cause the extractor cam and push rod to twist and gall so severely.

Find what caused that condition before repairing the parts and repeating the same again?

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
I can't imagine those parts being damaged under normal circumstances. IMHO (humble) it suggests an extremely hard extraction due the case sticking in the chamber has cause the extractor cam and push rod to twist and gall so severely.

Find what caused that condition before repairing the parts and repeating the same again?

Interesting.

I'm thinking either the right ejector had been tripped.

Sorry improper editing ....
Right ejector tripped before assembling gun

As a double rifle owner I am interested in this matter. What is the consensus? Thanks.

Yes, I would also like to know how this could have happened so I don't do also.

V-C guns should never be taken apart or try to re-assemble with the firing pins in the fired position. The gun needs to be in the cocked position. When the gun is in the fired position and you try and reassemble the ejectors are in the wrong position for the cocking rods to properly engage. If forced you can bend or deform both the cocking rods & the ejector.
Although uncommon I have had one person manage to bend his cocking rods in the past.

In this case I have spoken to Andrew and he was not the user & not paying close attention when it happened so he can not say 100% what happened. I am working with him to get it repaired.

quote:

Originally posted by Kebco:
V-C guns should never be taken apart or try to re-assemble with the firing pins in the fired position. The gun needs to be in the cocked position. When the gun is in the fired position and you try and reassemble the ejectors are in the wrong position for the cocking rods to properly engage. If forced you can bend or deform both the cocking rods & the ejector.
Although uncommon I have had one person manage to bend his cocking rods in the past.

In this case I have spoken to Andrew and he was not the user & not paying close attention when it happened so he can not say 100% what happened. I am working with him to get it repaired.

With respect I don't quite follow the scenario above. I always uncock my O/U shotgun and when carrying thee gun in a short bag or case I keep it uncocked by removing the forend, opening the action and lifting the barrels off the hinge pin. To assemble just reverse the sequence. Once assembled with the forend reattached the gun is broken open, cocking the internal hammers just as it would if the gun had just been fired.

I see nothing in the photos of the VC that would indicate the gun couldn't be reassembled while in a cocked or uncocked state.

Of course I could be totally wrong on this one and if so then I propose that the VC has been engineered pretty poorly in this department. Just what you wouldn't want happening when on safari or someone else assembling the gun.

It has happened to fairgame and if incorrect assembly is the cause then it must have happened before and will surely happen again to others. Shame VC, even the cheapest shotguns and likely double rifles get that right.

quote:

I always uncock my O/U shotgun and when carrying thee gun in a short bag or case I keep it uncocked by removing the forend, opening the action and lifting the barrels off the hinge pin.

You didn't mention pulling the trigger to "uncock" the hammer spring. Wouldn't the shotgun still be cocked?


40 years ago I bought my first SXS shotgun. Made the mistake of taking it apart then pulling the trigger. It took me hours to figure out how to get the hammers recocked so that it would go back together. I can see how if I had forced it together it could have messed it up similar to what I see above.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Originally posted by Kebco:
V-C guns should never be taken apart or try to re-assemble with the firing pins in the fired position. The gun needs to be in the cocked position. When the gun is in the fired position and you try and reassemble the ejectors are in the wrong position for the cocking rods to properly engage. If forced you can bend or deform both the cocking rods & the ejector.
Although uncommon I have had one person manage to bend his cocking rods in the past.

In this case I have spoken to Andrew and he was not the user & not paying close attention when it happened so he can not say 100% what happened. I am working with him to get it repaired.

With respect I don't quite follow the scenario above. I always uncock my O/U shotgun and when carrying thee gun in a short bag or case I keep it uncocked by removing the forend, opening the action and lifting the barrels off the hinge pin. To assemble just reverse the sequence. Once assembled with the forend reattached the gun is broken open, cocking the internal hammers just as it would if the gun had just been fired.

I see nothing in the photos of the VC that would indicate the gun couldn't be reassembled while in a cocked or uncocked state.

Of course I could be totally wrong on this one and if so then I propose that the VC has been engineered pretty poorly in this department. Just what you wouldn't want happening when on safari or someone else assembling the gun.

It has happened to fairgame and if incorrect assembly is the cause then it must have happened before and will surely happen again to others. Shame VC, even the cheapest shotguns and likely double rifles get that right.

Eagle27,

When you open a doublegun, whether rifle or shotgun, the cocking levers will be activated thus cocking the the gun. I have never been able to disassemble a double without cocking it. Unless the trigger is pulled while dissambled, the gun stays cocked. I know people do use a piece of horn or ebony to uncock a gun when stored disassembled for long periods, this is to relieve the spring pressure to extend their lives. I personally do not do this because it makes it much harder to reassemble correctly and problems like this can arise.

Ken,

Is there a way to recock a VC if it was uncocked while disassembled?

quote:

Originally posted by txlonghorn:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Originally posted by Kebco:
V-C guns should never be taken apart or try to re-assemble with the firing pins in the fired position. The gun needs to be in the cocked position. When the gun is in the fired position and you try and reassemble the ejectors are in the wrong position for the cocking rods to properly engage. If forced you can bend or deform both the cocking rods & the ejector.
Although uncommon I have had one person manage to bend his cocking rods in the past.

In this case I have spoken to Andrew and he was not the user & not paying close attention when it happened so he can not say 100% what happened. I am working with him to get it repaired.

With respect I don't quite follow the scenario above. I always uncock my O/U shotgun and when carrying thee gun in a short bag or case I keep it uncocked by removing the forend, opening the action and lifting the barrels off the hinge pin. To assemble just reverse the sequence. Once assembled with the forend reattached the gun is broken open, cocking the internal hammers just as it would if the gun had just been fired.

I see nothing in the photos of the VC that would indicate the gun couldn't be reassembled while in a cocked or uncocked state.

Of course I could be totally wrong on this one and if so then I propose that the VC has been engineered pretty poorly in this department. Just what you wouldn't want happening when on safari or someone else assembling the gun.

It has happened to fairgame and if incorrect assembly is the cause then it must have happened before and will surely happen again to others. Shame VC, even the cheapest shotguns and likely double rifles get that right.

Eagle27,

When you open a doublegun, whether rifle or shotgun, the cocking levers will be activated thus cocking the the gun. I have never been able to disassemble a double without cocking it. Unless the trigger is pulled while dissambled, the gun stays cocked. I know people do use a piece of horn or ebony to uncock a gun when stored disassembled for long periods, this is to relieve the spring pressure to extend their lives. I personally do not do this because it makes it much harder to reassemble correctly and problems like this can arise.

Ken,

Is there a way to recock a VC if it was uncocked while disassembled?

Of course you can open a double gun without cocking, just take the forend off an uncocked gun before opening the gun????? Uncock the gun using snap caps. It is the cams contained in the forend that cocks any double. With the forend removed a hammerless double cannot be cocked.

By the way if uncocking a single trigger gun with snap caps and if the gun is one that requires the recoil of the first barrel to 'set' the trigger for the second barrel, just give the recoil pad a wack with your hand, that's enough of a 'jar' to set the trigger to uncock the second barrel.

First off, I do not know if this is what happened with Andrews gun. I was not there, and he was not the shooter and not paying close attention. Judging by the pics the cocking rod and ejector were not lined up correctly and when the gun was opened ( I will not open in a normal manor it has to have a lot of force). It could have been the gun was not in the fully locked poition (lever not fully to the left) or even with the forarm not fully in the locked position (push rod still in the open or partially open position).
With a ejector gun of any make you should not take the gun apart with the hammers in the fired position. If you do sooner or latter you run the risk of damage if you do not reset the cocking rods to the proper position.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Originally posted by txlonghorn:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:

quote:

Originally posted by Kebco:
V-C guns should never be taken apart or try to re-assemble with the firing pins in the fired position. The gun needs to be in the cocked position. When the gun is in the fired position and you try and reassemble the ejectors are in the wrong position for the cocking rods to properly engage. If forced you can bend or deform both the cocking rods & the ejector.
Although uncommon I have had one person manage to bend his cocking rods in the past.

In this case I have spoken to Andrew and he was not the user & not paying close attention when it happened so he can not say 100% what happened. I am working with him to get it repaired.

With respect I don't quite follow the scenario above. I always uncock my O/U shotgun and when carrying thee gun in a short bag or case I keep it uncocked by removing the forend, opening the action and lifting the barrels off the hinge pin. To assemble just reverse the sequence. Once assembled with the forend reattached the gun is broken open, cocking the internal hammers just as it would if the gun had just been fired.

I see nothing in the photos of the VC that would indicate the gun couldn't be reassembled while in a cocked or uncocked state.

Of course I could be totally wrong on this one and if so then I propose that the VC has been engineered pretty poorly in this department. Just what you wouldn't want happening when on safari or someone else assembling the gun.

It has happened to fairgame and if incorrect assembly is the cause then it must have happened before and will surely happen again to others. Shame VC, even the cheapest shotguns and likely double rifles get that right.

Eagle27,

When you open a doublegun, whether rifle or shotgun, the cocking levers will be activated thus cocking the the gun. I have never been able to disassemble a double without cocking it. Unless the trigger is pulled while dissambled, the gun stays cocked. I know people do use a piece of horn or ebony to uncock a gun when stored disassembled for long periods, this is to relieve the spring pressure to extend their lives. I personally do not do this because it makes it much harder to reassemble correctly and problems like this can arise.

Ken,

Is there a way to recock a VC if it was uncocked while disassembled?

Of course you can open a double gun without cocking, just take the forend off an uncocked gun before opening the gun????? Uncock the gun using snap caps. It is the cams contained in the forend that cocks any double. With the forend removed a hammerless double cannot be cocked.

Of course you're right after thinking it through. Sorry

Believe you can cock a disassembled hammerless double by pushing the cocking arms against solid wooden or similar surface that doesn't risk to scratch metal....

Best of the Season

Despite all our thoughts and advice on how to cock, de-cock, etc, etc, it would be good to know just what has happened to cause the damage if it is possible to find that out now. As I said in an earlier post, I would still be cautious and check the ammo, closing the action on loaded chambers and then opening the action without firing, this will at least eliminate the possibility that loaded cartridges are not fitting and extracting from the chambers properly or there is some mechanical thing happening irrespective of firing the gun.

Unless I knew what had happened I would never have faith in the gun in the field especially where DG is concerned or an extended stay in the bush that would be ruined with a failed gun. Hope it all works out ok for you fairgame

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
Despite all our thoughts and advice on how to cock, de-cock, etc, etc, it would be good to know just what has happened to cause the damage if it is possible to find that out now. As I said in an earlier post, I would still be cautious and check the ammo, closing the action on loaded chambers and then opening the action without firing, this will at least eliminate the possibility that loaded cartridges are not fitting and extracting from the chambers properly or there is some mechanical thing happening irrespective of firing the gun.

Unless I knew what had happened I would never have faith in the gun in the field especially where DG is concerned or an extended stay in the bush that would be ruined with a failed gun. Hope it all works out ok for you fairgame

Thanks. Like I said I broke the action and put one bullet in the right chamber and told my son to fire the front trigger. Which he did and then complained the action was stiff to open? Yes I had to force it (maybe thinking the cartridge was stuck?) and was surprised to see it did not eject. On inspection I noticed the offset cocking levers and the burr on the sear end. I left it at that.

Thing is he had fired the gun a few times before but always with two cartridges in the chamber. The only thing I can think off is that he did not close the action properly?

My father died in 1987. I inheirited, by a roundabout route, his Henry Clarke of Leicester S/B/S boxlock ejector 12 bore gun.

He was given it in 1919 on his twelfth birthday. So that gun is what? Just six years shy of a century old?

It has always been stored,either in its case or when now stored put-up in a gun cabinet, with the "hammers" cocked and I have never let the hammers down on a piece of ebony, or a copper coin or whatever else.

So save for when it was being re-stocked for me, or being stripped and cleaned, or had work done on it the "hammers" have ALWAYS been cocked.

So I can assure all readers here that easing springs is an unnecessary fetish.

quote:

With the forend removed a hammerless double cannot be cocked.

Not quite true. You re-set the hammers by grasping the stock and action through the wrist and then pushing the cocking dogs, one at a time, against a convenient doorpost.

Enfieldspares speakes the truth, whilst many others who have commented on this thread are grasping at straws or trying to make the best of s shitty situation.

What happened to Fairgame should never have happened if the cocking levers had been properly hardened to begin with.

Look at just about any 100-year-old Webley Screw-Grip or Rigby rising-bite double rifle. Most are still going strong with none of this (unnecessary) kind of shit.

Quality, real quality, not the kind well-heeled American buyers with but a modicum of knowledge think up, is where you find it.

One should call shit workmanship what it is, no matter what.

Feel free to crucify away.

Amen.

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:
My father died in 1987. I inheirited, by a roundabout route, his Henry Clarke of Leicester S/B/S boxlock ejector 12 bore gun.

He was given it in 1919 on his twelfth birthday. So that gun is what? Just six years shy of a century old?

It has always been stored,either in its case or when now stored put-up in a gun cabinet, with the "hammers" cocked and I have never let the hammers down on a piece of ebony, or a copper coin or whatever else.

So save for when it was being re-stocked for me, or being stripped and cleaned, or had work done on it the "hammers" have ALWAYS been cocked.

So I can assure all readers here that easing springs is an unnecessary fetish.

quote:

With the forend removed a hammerless double cannot be cocked.

Not quite true. You re-set the hammers by grasping the stock and action through the wrist and then pushing the cocking dogs, one at a time, against a convenient doorpost.

I always thought that springs wear out because of use not because of the way they are "stored" compressed or extended.

Any update, Andrew, on your and Ken's effort to put the rifle back into service?

Best of the Season,
Tim

Did the rifle get fixed?

And was the cause of the damage ever actully determined?

Export of the gun was a problem so parts are being sent for local installation.
No one can say, Andrew was not looking when his son fired the gun. Any cause at this point would be only a guess and a lot of maybe's

First, don't blame the kid. Mechanical things get out of alignment and break all of the time.
I wouldn't be surprised if your gunsmith finds that something broke and/or jammed in the action. That would lock the cocking rod/lever in place not allowing you to open the rifle. When you forced it open, you bent the ejector parts.
Maybe when the forend was put on last time, the cocking rod and the ejector bar were not quite in alignment and...
This is where the double rifle shines. Even with one side broken, this is still a usable rifle. Albeit a single shot.
This is best left to your gunsmith... Strip the rifle down so you can see how the left side works. No stock, forend, or trigger plate. Use snap caps or remove the main spring. Look for bent, burred, or broken parts.
Good luck with your mystery.
Tom