Exactly what does barrel fluting provide in terms of benefits. Obviuosly, I guess a way to use a larger barrel contour with out increasing overall weight. Since I am interested in a BG rifle, not a varmint rifle increased heat dissipation surface is a non-issue. What are your thoughts? Is fluting worthwhile for BG rifles or just hype?

In my opinion it is hype.

There are those who say that it increases stiffness and heat dissipation, that is due to being able to use a larger contour barrel with the benefit of a smaller contour weight. No magic and no need of heat dissipation on a big game rifle as we all just need to focus on making the first shot count. Just my two cents.

It's main function is that it looks good.

In my view the biggest advantage is weight reduction; stiffness and heat disipation aspects are usually of marginal utility.

It looks kewl and different and sells guns.

Here’s what Ed Shilen has to say about it.

“What about "fluting" a barrel?
Fluting is a service we neither offer nor recommend. If you have a Shilen barrel fluted, the warranty is void. Fluting a barrel can induce unrecoverable stresses that will encourage warping when heated and can also swell the bore dimensions, causing loose spots in the bore. A solid (un-fluted) barrel is more rigid than a fluted barrel of equal diameter. A fluted barrel is more rigid than a solid barrel of equal weight. All rifle barrels flex when fired. Accuracy requires that they simply flex the same and return the same each time they are fired, hence the requirement for a pillar bedded action and free floating barrel. The unrecoverable stresses that fluting can induce will cause the barrel to flex differently or not return from the flexing without cooling down a major amount. This is usually longer than a shooter has to wait for the next shot. The claim of the flutes helping to wick heat away faster is true, but the benefit of the flutes is not recognizable in this regard until the barrel is already too hot.â€

Nuff Said Gentlemen,

Thanks for your advice!

Hugh

I use fluted barrels in order to be able to use a heavier barrel contour but with the weight of a lighter barrel contour.
As far as accuracy is concerned,these groups were fired with fluted barrels,and I certainly don't see any accuracy issues.

Stubble, I agree with you... I'm not a big fan of fluting as I don't actually like the way it looks and I don't like cleaning it but the reality is it's a functional option to get weight out of a heavyish tube without sacrificing stiffness, as your pics prove!

I have medium varmint barrels on both 300ultramags and a #4 contour on my 7mmstw because I like the heavier barrel contours for stiffness and consistancy,but the fluting does reduce the weight of my rifles.

I just ran the numbers on the weight reduction with fluting a 26" barrel and it came to 11 ounces. I made this calculation once before and obviously screwed something up as I thought at that time that it was just a few ounces.

Also Krieger barrels will do fluting. If there is a problem with fluting, John Krieger would not do it.

Brad, get back to work. Okay same applies to me.

:grin:

quote:

Originally posted by Customstox:
I just ran the numbers on the weight reduction with fluting a 26" barrel and it came to 11 ounces. I made this calculation once before and obviously screwed something up as I thought at that time that it was just a few ounces.

Also Krieger barrels will do fluting. If there is a problem with fluting, John Krieger would not do it.

Brad, get back to work. Okay same applies to me.

Chic,

As I am sure you know, cut rifling does not induce the stresses that button rifling does and that may be something Shilen was considering when he made those statements.

I received a fluted Lothar Walther barrel several years back, and as usual, I would wipe the bore and eyeball the diffraction rings to see if the barrel were straight. This particular one was a little out of whack. Not too bad, just enough to be noticable to any idiot with a bad eye.

Rather than wait for another barrel to be made up and sent, the customer asked me to try and straighten the barrel. WRONG! When push came to shove (pun intended), this fluted barrel would not straighten. In fact, the more I tried, the more 'out of whack' diffraction rings would appear. I never tried THAT again. Talk about a cluster fuck!

0311, when did Ed Shilen say that? I have had barrels fluted by Shilen for some customers.

quote:

Originally posted by eddieharren:
0311, when did Ed Shilen say that? I have had barrels fluted by Shilen for some customers.

Go here: http://shilen.com/ and click on FAQ's.

Rick, they stress relieve after they create the rifling. If they don't you can have all kinds of problems, like the bore opening up. Ask Mark Stratton he had a barrel from a manufacturer that did not stress relieve and it went down that ever widening road.

quote:

I would wipe the bore and eyeball the diffraction rings to see if the barrel were straight

Sorry, but I've never heard of this technique. Could you share the particulars, maybe on another thread? Thanks!

now back to your regularly scheduled conversation:

UN-

quote:

Originally posted by Customstox:
Rick, they stress relieve after they create the rifling. If they don't you can have all kinds of problems, like the bore opening up. Ask Mark Stratton he had a barrel from a manufacturer that did not stress relieve and it went down that ever widening road.

Obermeyer (also cut rifling) flutes barrels before they are rifled and chambered.

I know that hammer forged and button rifled barrels receive stress relieving after rifling...but I have talked to several guys that have said that it is not a good idea to have a finished barrel, that has been on a rifle, fluted (especially non-cut rifled ones). If you want a fluted barrel it should be ordered that way rather than converting one. Makes sense to me.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:


Obermeyer (also cut rifling) flutes barrels before they are rifled and chambered.

I know that hammer forged and button rifled barrels receive stress relieving after rifling...but I have talked to several guys that have said that it is not a good idea to have a finished barrel, that has been on a rifle, fluted (especially non-cut rifled ones). If you want a fluted barrel it should be ordered that way rather than converting one. Makes sense to me.

I flute barrels, but only brand new unfired blanks. Never one that has been previously fired. Because firing a weapon places stress on the barrel, it would stand to reason that making any change to the barrel either by recontouring, or, fluting can, to a degree, relieve these stresses and cause an otherwise good barrel to walk.

I've seen barrels that have been rebored to a larger caliber suffer from the effects of this style of stress relief. So if a barrel is going to be fluted, I would do it first thing.

Yeah, I wouldn't want to flute a finished (much less used) barrel. IIRC, Dan Lilja flutes his barrels before final lapping.

quote:

Originally posted by malm:
I received a fluted Lothar Walther barrel several years back, and as usual, I would wipe the bore and eyeball the diffraction rings to see if the barrel were straight.

could you describe what a straight barrel looks like vs a crooked one, by diffraction rings ?

thanks

I have on two occassions built rifles that ultimately were too heavy for their intended purpose. I took a chance and had them fluted and cryogenicly treated. One was a 243 Ackley Improved on a Mauser action the other a 25-06 Ackley both shot quite a bit before fluting. Both rifles actually shot better after the fluting.

I had a long phone call with Dan Lilja about fluting. He thinks that a fluted barrel is stiffer than a barrel of the same weight. I was afraid of the stress on the barrel and the barrel heating and cooling at different rates (thicker on the lands and thinner in the grooves). I trusted him, fact I was going to order a Hart but he sold me the barrel with out a sales pitch. Really good guy. I now have a fluted Pac_nor and a fluted lilja. Both shoot awesome. I got it because it looked cool, not for any other reason. Last few I have bought have no flutes. Lighter a little, hurt accuracy I only have 2 one 17 and 1 7mm Both are very accurate. The 7mm is the most accurate gun I own. Do they look cool oh yeah. I do not know if I will flute another, I would rather dump the extra $125 in glass triggers the stock or action.

I wish we'd had the barrel on my wife's 6/250 fluted, as it could do with a bit less weight. My 6*47, with exactly the same size and make of barrel is fluted, and the weight difference is appreciable. Both are very accurate vermin rifles....certainly the fluting hasn't affected the level of accuracy that I need.

I wonder how old that statement about fluting barrels is. I know I sent two barrels to Shilen in 1998 to be fluted. I remember this well because I still have the one LV 6ppc on my old group gun. The other barrel is on a customers railgun. One of the reasons I remember that Shilen did them is because, when they returned the barrels, the flutes were deeper at the breech end than they were at the muzzle end. Obviously they didn't offset the barrel when fluting. I've had barrels fluted by the late Skip Otto and Clay Spencer and have never seen any adverse effects on accuracy. In fact the above mentioned LV barrel shot "small group" (.107") in the Hog Roast one year.

back to the topic of big game rifles and fluting-it has very limited value in reducing weight while still keeping a SLIGHTLY stiffer barrel.

Totally forget about heat dissipation. Run some calculations on it and you will see that if the barrel is glowing red and there is a 50mph cross wind, the fluted barrel will cool to ambient temperature maybe a few seconds faster. Yes, on paper it cools faster, but it is so trivial it is impossible to see the effects.

As for the stiffness, true with 2 barrels of the same weight the fluted one will be stiffer. Will you ever see this in a big game rifle? No way. And a fluted barrel of a larger contour will still be heavier than the lightest contour you can get unfluted. So for total weight savings, you are better off going with the smaller contour from the start. As for actual weight savings, a 22†#2 .270 Shilen weighed 2# 10.5oz unfluted and 2# 2.2 oz fluted. These weights were taken on a certified postal scale. But a factory contour 22†.270 Rem Mountain Rifle barrel weighs 1# 15.9oz. 2oz is not much to most folks, but when trying to get the last oz off, they all ad up. You save a pound by taking off 16 ounces.

As for accuracy effects, anything you do to a barrel has the potential to affect accuracy. If done correctly, it will probably be OK. Will it ever affect the meaningful accuracy on a hunting rifle? Not likely.

Gun writers and the general public have not taken thermodynamics, fluids, heat transfer, strengths of materials, theory of elasticity, inelastic deformation, etc., etc. These GREATLY simplifies things, as it makes it very easy for a writer to doll out some drivel and advertising propaganda and have it read by a couple thousand gun enthusiasts and then it gets repeated as gospel for the next few decades.

Basically, if you think it looks cool, by all means flute it. It’s your money and you should have what you want. This is America after all!

quote:

Basically, if you think it looks cool, by all means flute it. It’s your money and you should have what you want. This is America after all!

My .300WinMag is fluted and the .375H&H I'm having made will be fluted (both H-S Precision). It suits me and you are right: I should have what I want!

Having what you want may be great...but that wasn’t what the poster asked. He wanted to know the claimed benefits of a flutted barrel on a hunting rifle...or if it was just hype.

There are plenty of things that we all “like†on a rifle that may or may not have any practical effect on anything and are done purely for aesthetic reasons.

I have only chambered one fluted barrel, and it is not light.

I read somewhere, maybe here at AR, that the cooling improvment is not from addtional surface area, but from getting the air closer to the hot part of the barrel.

Are the guys that sell the lightest hunting rifles using flute barrels?

quote:

Originally posted by tnekkcc:
I have only chambered one fluted barrel, and it is not light.

I read somewhere, maybe here at AR, that the cooling improvment is not from addtional surface area, but from getting the air closer to the hot part of the barrel.

Are the guys that sell the lightest hunting rifles using flute barrels?

If getting the air “closer†to the hot area was the key, then thinner barrels would obviously cool quicker than thicker ones.

I believe that most people wanting fluted barrels fall into one of two categories...1) they like the way it looks...2) they are trying to save as much weight as possible.

I also believe that the jury is still out on how much better “cooling†is offered by fluted barrels...especially on a hunting rifle that isn’t firing that many shots in quick sucession.

I just snooped around on the web, and it looks like fluting in only on the heavier rifles from Kimber, but fluting is on the light rifles from Bansner.

Even the light weight rifle makers do not agree

Fads are fads...and sometimes they stick around and sometimes they don’t.

It’s sometimes funny though to read the posts where everyone wants a six pound large caliber rifle...then they start asking about muzzle breaks and recoil pads because it’s beating the hell out of them.

Beat the hell out of you carrying, shooting, your ear drums, or following a blood trail.
Take your choice of beatings.
I'll take the recoil.

I've talked to a lot of what I consider knowledgeable people on this. One gun smith in the business for over 30 years. He builds quality rifles. He asked me this question. If they are so superior as fast as the Palma and BR shooters grab at anything that might be an advantage were not seeing a lot more of them in shooting competition?

He waited a minute for my to digest it and then smiled. Then I heard the words come from Dan's mouth "HYPE HYPE HYPE"!

first, do not accept at face value - and i have seen this claimed - that "fluted barrels are stiffer". that is and is not true DEPENDING. if you take two barrels of a given SAME contour and flute one and not the other, the unfluted one will be stiffer. you CAN NOT remove material and make something stiffer. stiffness is a function of youngs modulus of elasticity, the moment of inertia, and the distance from the neutral axis to the furthest point of the cross sectional shape ("y"). (one would hope in a barrel the neutral axis would be the bore; if not you're gonna get some weird stringing). assuming same bbl material, youngs modulus is the same so forget that component. the moment of inertia is a function of the cross sectional dimensions perpindicular to the plane of bending. any material removed DECREASES the MOI and REDUCES stiffness.

now the benefit: what one CAN achieve by fluting the barrel is getting a cross sectional shape of GREATER stiffness for the SAME weight as a baseline unfluted barrel because the Y value (distance from centroid to edge) can go up dramatically. there is a benefit. you can have a stiffer barrel for the same weight but you must start with a larger contour.

just don't EVER let someone tell you you can take a given barrel already existing and flute it and achieve greater stiffeness. that's mathematically impossible. can you do that and have fluke's that give greater accuracy than before? sure, but they're flukes. to get full benefit you have to start with a larger OD barrel contour.

roger

I don't believe in fluted barrels.Have one doesn't say much.My most accurate rifle ever was not fluted.Can pass a oily rag on a round barrel and keep it looking good.I believe weight dampens vibrations.I think fluted barrels,stainless barrels, and fancy bolts are a business boaster more than anything else.