I would like to correspond with anyone who has a pre-1940 American custom rifle. I have an interest in learning about all the major makers plus the unknown workmen. I maintain a database of barrel numbers on makers such as Griffin & Howe, Hoffman, and Niedner. I want to hear about any unmarked custom rifles, I have a interest in early low-numbered 1903 Springfields. The 1903’s were first sold to civilians circa 1910 and the custom rifle race was on. I have files on every major player and many regional makers who are for the most part unknown today. If I can help with question please drop me a note at mjpetrov@acsalaska.net
Thanks, Michael

The High Wall pictured here was made by the late Floyd Butler of Raceville, NY. It was originaly chambered for the R2 Lovell and now is a 219 Improved Zipper. The barrel is a 26" Buhmiller. I have the highest percentage of hits with this rifle over any other.



Do you have any information on Floyd Butler?

How about sharing some of your knowledge of the Hoffman Arms Company? Howe's departure from G&H, their tenure in Cleveland, Ardmore, Amarillo, etc,? Thanks.

quote:

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Originally posted by Savage99:
The High Wall pictured here was made by the late Floyd Butler of Raceville, NY. It was originaly chambered for the R2 Lovell and now is a 219 Improved Zipper. The barrel is a 26" Buhmiller. I have the highest percentage of hits with this rifle over any other.


Do you have any information on Floyd Butler?

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Looks like a nice rifle, I like these early varmint rifles on the high-wall action. I just learned something new, did not know he was in NY. I have a small file on Butler only because most of his work was after the war. One letter in my file from him to a customer dated 1954 says he has twenty-five years experience at this time he is located in Poultney, Vermont. One other reference dated 1949 shows him at the Vermont address as well, do you know when he was in NY?

quote:

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Originally posted by fla3006:
How about sharing some of your knowledge of the Hoffman Arms Company? Howe's departure from G&H, their tenure in Cleveland, Ardmore, Amarillo, etc,? Thanks.

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OK, but no pictures, sorry.
The Hoffman Arms Company
February, 1998 ©
Precision Shooting Magazine
The Hoffman Arms Company opened for business in June 1923, the same month as Griffin & Howe did. No custom gun-making firm had a better chance for success than The Hoffman Arms Company. The president of this new company was Harry M. Snyder, an on-again off-again wealthy man who spent a month or more every year hunting all over the world. Secretary-treasurer of this new firm was Guy A. Spencer, who had a business office at 610 National City Building, Cleveland, Ohio with James I. Stephens in charge. A branch office run by Captain J. H. Portugal was located in New York City at 25 Warren St.

Sergeant Frank L. Hoffman of the U.S. Marine Corps was well known in shooting circles as a competitor in the national matches. Before 1923 Hoffman had done some stockmaking, big game hunting, and sold a blueing solution under his own name. Hoffman’s address at this time was Box 251, Fredericksburg, Virginia. Harry Snyder talked Hoffman into leaving the Marine Corps and with his and others’ backing starting the Hoffman Arms Company. With an investment of $90,000 a modern shop was built in Cleveland, Ohio. Skilled workmen were hired from most of the major arms companies in America as well as from the Ross Rifle Company of Canada. From Colt came Eric Johnson and his friend John Dubiel. Johnson was in charge of buying the machinery and setting up the barrel shop. Dubiel worked on barrels and as a stockmaker. When Synder and the other officers of the company came back from a buying trip to Europe, they had with them every model of Mauser action in the white from the Kurz (short) for the .250-3000 to the No. 20 used for the 505 Gibbs . From W & C Scott & Son and Webley and Scott came barreled actions for shotguns and double rifles also in the white. At the same time the largest collection of imported wood for stockmaking then in the USA was bought by them. From Holland & Holland of England came John Wright and his son who both specialized in shotgun and rifle stocking. Many of the early intricately carved stocks have been attributed to John Wright. When the doors opened at 174 East 27th Street Cleveland, Ohio Hoffman had 20-plus experienced men and all the material that would be needed to make custom rifles and shotguns.

An early ad read “Hoffman rifles are built to your order in one of the best equipped factories of its kind in the world, manned by the largest aggregation of expert gun builders ever assembled into one organization.†In October 1923 Hoffman hired James V. Howe away from G&H. Hoffman wasted no time telling the shooting public as an early ad read, †Mr. James V. Howe, formerly with G&H is a permanent member of our organization.†Where G&H specialized in the conversion of the Springfields, Hoffman’s forte was in making large bore rifles on Mauser actions. Magnum rifles were built in calibers .375 H&H, 404, .423 (10.75mm), .416 and .505 . Double rifles were built in calibers .30-06,.375,400-450,.450, .465, .500, .577, .600. Standard length and smaller action rifles were built in calibers .25 H.P. (.25-06) .250-300, 6.5mm, .275 Mag, 7X57mm, .276 Dubiel, .280 Ross, .280 Jeffrey, .30-06, .300 Mag, .333 Jeffery, .35 and .400 Whelen.
From their Research and Development Department came a single-shot falling block rifle. This Hoffman single-shot rifle was advertised in .22 & .25 rimfire .25-20, .32-20 and .32-40. They also made and patented a left-hand conversion for the Springfield Model 1903 ( Patent # 1,545,045). Hoffman manufactured and sold the Howe-Whelen bolt sleeve sight for the Springfield and Mauser. This was a complicated and expensive sight to manufacture, selling for $25 installed on your rifle in 1924.

Hoffman made rifles for the 275 and 375 H&H under the name of Hoffman Magnum. Loaded ammo was made by Kynoch with the Hoffman headstamp, Hoffman 375 Magnum. Likewise with the .505 Gibbs, 333 & 404 Jeffery, .416 Rigby, and 10.75mm, the maker’s names were dropped and they became Hoffman Magnum cartridges. Their proprietary cartridges were the .276 Dubiel and the .300 Hoffman Magnum. The .300 Hoffman uses the H&H case with the neck moved forward and much sharper neck taper than the H&H. The .276 Dubiel was the .275 H&H case redesigned. Listed information on the .300 Hoffman Magnum was 3600 fps with 120 grain bullet and 3149 fps for the 150 grain The .276 Dubiel was 3246 fps with the 139 grain bullet and 2805 fps for the 180 grain


In 1925 a group of oilmen from Oklahoma led by C. E. Sykes who were shooters and hunters visited the Hoffman Arms Company. They were so impressed with the company that they bought it lock, stock and barrel. They built a new shop and bought houses for the workmen and moved the whole operation to Oklahoma. In July 1925 the new shop at Ardmore, Oklahoma was open for business. Besides Sykes some of the other men with an investment in the new company were C.B. Goddard, Hugo Stromberg, George Otey, and a man named Watson. When the company was liquidated in 1930 the owners were listed as Hudson & Watson.

The Depression hit Hoffman’s harder than most of the other custom makers of the day because there were several non-productive people on the payroll. When the doors closed in 1930 Frank Hoffman stayed on in Ardmore. He advertised his rust blue under the name The Hoffman Chemical Co. and offered to build sporting rifles. In American Arms and Arms Makers by Gardner (1938) the author makes note of a Hoffman & Wright in Ardmore, Oklahoma. I have never seen an ad for Hoffman & Wright or any other reference to this partnership. More research may be needed to sort this all out.

When Hoffman failed John Dubiel and Eric Johnson started the Dubiel Arms Company and Dubiel ran this company until his death in August 1937. I have seen Dubiel rifles that are marked “Made By John Dubiel Ardmore, Okla. No 500†and “John Dubiel Arms Co.†I believe Dubiel may have continued on in numerical order with the Hoffman numbers. Eric Johnson stayed for a while then moved back to Hartford, Connecticut and went to work for Winchester. He then started his own shop specializing in .22 rimfire barrels. I have seen one Springfield sporter marked “Eric Johnson Ardmore, OKLAâ€. John Wright and his son moved back to Cleveland then to Kansas City, Missouri and went into business with Clyde Baker (gunsmith and author of Modern Gunsmithg, SATPCo. 1928) for a short time using the name of “Baker & Wright Arms & Equipment Co.†at 550 Gibraltar Building Kansas City, Missouri. Not long afterward the Wrights started their own business as “John Wright and Son†with the business located at 818 Wyandotte St., Kansas City, Missouri. About the time England went to war with Germany the Wright’s shop closed or they no longer advertised; it may be they returned to England.

In August of 1940 a new Hoffman Arms Company opened it’s doors at 314 N. Tyler St., Amarillo, Texas; this firm was managed by B.R. Polley. Other than having the parts and pieces of the old Hoffman-Dubiel shop I have been unable to find any other connection between this new Hoffman Arms Company and the old business. One man whom I have corresponded with from Ardmore, Oklahoma said that Frank Hoffman moved to Amarillo. If Hoffman was involved with the new company I have not found anything about it in writing. With the outbreak of WW II this company lasted just a short time before the men and equipment were drafted for war work. One Amarillo Hoffman rifle has an engraved floorplate by R.J. Kornbrath. This would suggest that the older Hoffman and Dubiel shops had these on hand as Kornbrath had a stroke in 1937 and did no engraving after that date.

Identifying a Hoffman:

The first thing that catches your eye on a Hoffman rifle is that the barrel is about the diameter of the action for the length of the chamber. Also many of the stocks have checkering that goes over the top of the pistol grip. All barrel names and addresses are engraved on the barrel with the exception of some of the later guns from Ardmore. At this time Hoffman’s did not have the money to send off the guns to have them engraved with their name and number, so these were done with stamps. The Hoffman ramp front sight will have a push-button on the left side to remove the sight protector. To further confuse collectors Hoffman sold their sights and other furnishings to gunsmiths and others , so you may see Hoffman sights on rifles not made by them.

From May 1923 until June 1925 you will find engraved on the barrel: “No. XXX Hoffman Arms Co. Cleveland Ohio†With work-order or serial number. Estimated year and barrel number.
1923................................1-60
1924........................... 61-164
1925...........................165-220

From July 1925 until December 1930 engraved or stamped on the barrel, “No. XXX Hoffman Arms Co. Ardmore, Okla.†With work-order or serial number. Estimated year and barrel number.
1925............................241-261
1926............................262-290
1927............................291-339
1928............................340-388
1929............................389-437
1930............................438-485

You will notice that the numbers from Cleveland stop at 220, the highest number found so far, and Ardmore starts at 241, the lowest cataloged. If you see a Hoffman, take note of the number and address and drop me a note.


“Hoffman Arms Co.â€
This Hoffman stamp without an address has been seen on rebores and on guns thought to be made for speculation and not to order.

It is my belief that there were four, possibly five, sets of serial numbers on Hoffman guns. One set was for rifles made to order for the customer; these start at number 1 and end at around number 500. The second set was for Harry Snyder and may be numbered 1-9; number 2 and 4 are either stamped “Snyder†on the bottom of the barrel or engraved with his name on the floorplate. Harry Snyder’s return on his investment when the business was sold was nine Hoffman rifles. The third through fifth sets are guns made for the showrooms in New York, Cleveland, and for a traveling salesman. These may be marked “Sample†on the bottom of the barrel. Known sample guns are a 10.75mm, 275 Magnum and 7X57 all serial numbered 1. There are two sample guns numbered 2, a .400 Whelen and a 10.75 mm. Two Number 3 sample guns are a 10.75mm and a 375 Magnum. Amarillo guns are marked on the barrel, “Hoffman Arms Co., Amarillo, Texas No. 100â€. Number 124 is the highest number recorded so far.

The following Hoffman catalogs are known. Circular “A†Rifles in Light and Medium Caliber, “B†Express and Magnum Rifles, “C†Shotguns, “E†Hoffman Left-Hand Action for Springfield, “F†Types of Special Sights, Specimens of Engraving and Decoration , and from Amarillo, Texas Guns of Distinction. I would love to hear from anyone who may have a catalog or circular not listed.

A few well known customers of the Hoffman Arms Co. were Elmer Keith, Teddy & Kermit Roosevelt, Charles Askins, Carl and Mary Akeley and William Randolph Hearst.

Townsend Whelen , responsible for the formation of Griffin & Howe, when asked about a .404 Hoffman in the October 15, 1925 American Rifleman had this to say: “ Sometime ago I received a .404 Magnum Hoffman Mauser rifle for test. This rifle was a superb weapon in every way. The barrel was excellent, and the accuracy the finest I have ever seen in a heavy magnum rifle. The figures for velocities, energies, pressures and trajectories given by the Hoffman Arms Company for all their cartridges are absolutely correct. I know this because I happen to have seen the verification of the Du Pont Company on all of them.â€

Hoffman Arms Company guns are not as well known today as, say, G&H. Their total production did not exceed 500 including shotguns. Most Hoffmans are in private collections with a few a year finding their way to the market place. The workmanship on these classics takes a back seat to no maker.

Part V, Hoffman Arms Company
February, 1998©

I was not prepared for the amount of response I got from the Hoffman article.
I then realized that nothing had been written about this company for seventy-five years. I heard from people with Hoffmans as far away as Europe, Africa , and as near as the next town. (My apologies to the gentleman from Africa, I got the information on your rifle, but your fax number was cut off.) My database of Hoffman rifles has more than doubled since the article was published. With the original correspondence supplied on a couple of rifles, I can redo the date serial number table.

One thing that I was not clear on in my article is the barrel contours that are the same diameter as the action for a couple of inches. Although this was standard on most sporting rifles, many target and heavy barrel rifles did not have this feature.
Three people asked if the single-shot was ever made or was just a picture in Hoffman’s catalog? I have had reports of two of these single-shot rifles in .22 caliber. The information on the two is separated by many years and it is possible that it’s the same gun, with a different location and different owner.

I have had several requests by people who were looking for information on Eric Johnson rifles. In the article, I overlooked telling you that through the courtesy of Rudi Prusok and the American Single Shot Rifle Association, I have a copy of Eric Johnson’s shop books and I’d be happy to supply you with information on your rifle. I will need the serial number, make and model of the rifle and any Johnson numbers. I also learned that after Eric Johnson left the Dubiel Arms Company, John Dubiel did his own rifling.

The rifling machinery that was moved to the new Hoffman shop in Amarillo, Texas was requisitioned by the government and may have been sent to Johnson Automatics for war work. Are there any Johnson Automatics students out there that could set me straight on this?

Rifles marked “Baker & Wright†and “John Wright & Son†have both surfaced.
These would have been made in Kansas City, Missouri after the Wrights left Hoffmans.
Estimated year and barrel number for Cleveland marked Hoffman guns*.
1923………..1-60
1924…………61-164
1925………….165-220

Estimated year and barrel number for Ardmore marked Hoffman guns*.
1925……………..241-290
1926……………..291-350
1927……………..351-386
1928……..………387-424
1929…………..….425-455
1930………….…..456-485

The lowest Amarillo number so far recorded is 18 and the highest is 124.
*I am using the word “gun†because Hoffman used these numbers on both rifles and shotguns.

Michael, that was super, the kind of thing that makes AR so great! I've looked at a few Hoffmans, sure would like to own one. Lewis Drake had a superb Kornbrath engraved 505 Gibbs on an Oberndorf #20 action awhile back.

I think the question we all have is when is the book going to be available?

John

Thats pretty interesting stuff. I like old rifles.
I have a old custom model 1927 30 remington. It has alot of reciever/action modificatins, and a custom stock made with cast off. Its not marked anywhere. Someone put alot of work into it makes it interesting.

Michael,

Floyd lived in Raceville, NY and the nearest town was Poultney, VT. Raceville may not have a post office. He stamped his guns with his name and the Poultney, VT address as you know.

Someone told me that there was an article in the Rifleman written about Floyd that may have been dated in the 30's.

"Woodchucks and Woodchuck Rifles" by Landis lists Butler as a custom gunsmith at RD#2, Poultney, VT

In "Twenty-Two Caliber Varmint Rifles" Landis mentions Butler along with Marciante, Gibson and Keel as smiths who are fitting .219 Donaldson Wasp barrels to single shot rifles.

quote:

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Originally posted by gasgunner:
I think the question we all have is when is the book going to be available?

John

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I’m told very soon, time will tell.

quote:

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Originally posted by GSP7:
Thats pretty interesting stuff. I like old rifles.
I have a old custom model 1927 30 remington. It has alot of reciever/action modificatins, and a custom stock made with cast off. Its not marked anywhere. Someone put alot of work into it makes it interesting.

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No promises, but I would be glad to look at some pictures of it and see if it tells me anything.

Savage99

Thanks for the info on Butler. He worked a little later than my years of interest so I have not done any detailed research on him. If someone wants to follow up on him and knows the date of the American Rifleman article I’ll copy and send it along.

MP

Screwed up my post above.... sorry

Sectacular Post Michael! Do you have any information in 1st model Newton Rifles? I only know that there were about 4,000 made between 1916 and 1919. ( My guess is mine was made about 1917) There is really very little info out there on these fine rifles.

Savage99
That's a beautiful rifle..
I also love the older rifles such as that. I have a rifle now with a Buhmiller barrel. It was my Step Dad's and was originally a 257 Roberts, 26" long, no taper. It's been bored out and is now a 284 Win. It's on a 98 action.
Don

Pennsylvania Frank,

Other than having the Newton book and a few of the catalogs I‘m not very knowledgeable about Newtons. If you drop a note to Jim Foral at NewtonExp@msn.com I’m sure he can answer any questions you might have.

MP

quote:

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Originally posted by DMB:
Savage99
That's a beautiful rifle..
I also love the older rifles such as that. I have a rifle now with a Buhmiller barrel. It was my Step Dad's and was originally a 257 Roberts, 26" long, no taper. It's been bored out and is now a 284 Win. It's on a 98 action.
Don

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Thanks DNB. The thing that sets Butlers work apart from some others was first Floyd himself. He was one of the finest people ever to walk the face of this earth. Ken Howell has a story he told me about how Floyd would back up his work. I knew Floyd personally even though we were far apart in years. Butlers work was artful also and the rifles shot. He used Buhmiller barrels unless you supplied one.

Here's some pics of the Hoffman 505 sold recently by Drake:

I have a Butler Krag sporter here and another purchased at Amoskeag Auction that I have not received yet. Both have that curlicue at the front of the cheekpiece which apparently was a Butler feature. Over the years I have seen a number of Butler single shot varmint rifles and they all had this treatment.

I would very much like to know anything you have on August Pachmayer. I have a pair of his rifles here and would love to know more about him. These were made after he came to America.
Frank

quote:

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Originally posted by Frank Martinez:
I would very much like to know anything you have on August Pachmayer. I have a pair of his rifles here and would love to know more about him. These were made after he came to America.
Frank

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The is at least one book on the Pachmayers and a few articles that have been written about August. If you will write me at mjpetrov@acsalaska.net I’ll try to answer questions you have.

Fla3006, can you get more pictures of that rifle please? the stockwork specifically, but the whole thing is incredible. I would really appreciate it.

In fact, all of you should be posting lots ofpictures. :-)

Red

Red, the pics came off Drake's website: www.drake.net

I would like to see more pics from others too. Pics "are worth a thousand words".

The Hoffman Bear.

Love the bear on the Hoffman! Wonder who did that kind of work for them?

The carving on the Hoffman stocks has been attributed to John Wright and his son Someday more information may come to light, I learn new stuff about the Hoffman people all the time.

Harvey W. Rodgers another ex Hoffman stockmaker.

Michael,
A good read, I have owned a number of Hoffmans and as a matter of fact I recently picked up #124, an Amarillo Hoffman in 10.75x68...

I have always had an interrest in Hoffmans as he hunted on my uncles ranch in Texas and my uncle had a couple of his rifles at that time that I always lusted after...

I sold my Hoffmans as they kept going up in value until I simply could not afford them anymore..One sold to Bruce Olson at an auction recently in Jerome Idaho for $800. and it has been balued at about $9000.00, it is a Kornbrath engraved gun..

I do know that Hoffman was involved in the Amirillo company for sometime, how long I do not know, but remember my uncle telling me he made guns in Amarillo, for what thats worth....

I guess I had better keep this one, its like new but its a working mans gun, even so it displays a lot of fine workmanship and shows a lot of class. integral quarter rib, absolutly wonderful milsurp trigger ( and they said it couldn't be done), exhibition quarter sawn wood, barrel band swivel and front sight, Silvers pad, all the bells and whistle sans engraving and the chamber portion of the barrel and the action ring are perceived as one...

I have been trying to buy a cleveland Hoffman to go with this one, but no luck as yet.

quote:

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Originally posted by Atkinson: I recently picked up #124, an Amarillo Hoffman in 10.75x68.

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Pics?! (email them to fla3006@yahoo.com and I'll be happy to post them for you)

What can you tell me about WA Sukalle? I have a 30-06 Mauser with one of his barrels and it's among the most accurate I've ever fired. Keith and O'Connor mention him, but that's about all I know. Thanks, Okie John

quote:

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Originally posted by Atkinson:
I do know that Hoffman was involved in the Amirillo company for sometime, how long I do not know, but remember my uncle telling me he made guns in Amarillo, for what thats worth....

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Thanks, I’ve heard this from several sources but I have never been able to confirm it. I have Frank Hoffman in Ardmore as late as 1933, after that nothing. No question that the Hoffman name was used in Texas, who owned it at that time I don’t know.

quote:

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Originally posted by okie john:
What can you tell me about WA Sukalle? I have a 30-06 Mauser with one of his barrels and it's among the most accurate I've ever fired. Keith and O'Connor mention him, but that's about all I know. Thanks, Okie John

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John, William Sukalle: William Sukalle was an automotive machinist and hi-power shooter who wanted a better barrel. He played around at barrel-making for some time, then took the Big Step by buying 100 military surplus .22 caliber barrels made for the Springfield Hoffer-Tompson. These he re-bored and re-rifled to .25 caliber for the then “new†.257 Roberts. The first business address I found for him in The American Rifleman was in October 1931 at 60 South 5th Avenue Tucson, AZ; in November 1935 he was at 1120 East Washington St. Phoenix, AZ. Sukalle barrels will have the Sukalle mark that is an “S†in an oval (and a four-digit number.) I just do not have enough numbers to say positively but I believe that the last two numbers are the year the barrel was made and the first number or numbers signify the barrel number. If this is correct then number 1036 would be the tenth barrel made in 1936. I have reports of barrels marked with just the “S†and barrel number, with no name. Early barrels are marked “W. A. SUKALLE TUCSON ARIZ†while later barrels are marked on top “W. A. SUKALLE-GUNMAKER-PHOENIX-ARIZâ€

I’m always interested in who stocked the rifles with Sukalle barrels can you send me a picture at mjpetrov@acsalaska.net

Michael, I think Monte Mandarino bought a Sukalle barreled Krag a year or so ago.

Here's another 505 Gibbs Hoffman that was sold by Lewis Drake, serial #3, restocked, "restored":

And I just noticed a Kornbrath engraved Cleveland Hoffman for sale on gunsamerica:

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976529159.htm

And an engraved 375H&H:

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976497457.htm

fla3006,
That is an interesting scope base system. I wonder why he has that scope so far back particularly on a 505 Gibbs. Maybe his nickname is one eyed Bill or something.


Great photos and wonderful guns. Often carving on stocks turns me cold but not these examples. They are very well done and add to the firearm.

There was a great variety of stock carving at Hoffmans, something for everyone.

>>>>Hoffman Stock<<<<

Mike several years ago I regrettably passed on a DHT 1903 with 7x57 Sukalle barrel, looked like it might have been his stock, it was at Vegas. Apparently gunwriter Gary Sitton bought it, at least he told me he had. Tried to buy it from him, he said he'd sell it to me, then he disappeared and from various threads on the gunwriter forum at 24hourcampfire.com apparently he has stopped writing and has health problems and I have no idea how to find him.