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.308 win into Big Bore for DG
.308 win into Big Bore for DG
Hi Guys
I have a question. Is there any easily made big bore DG cartridge that complies with the 375H&H minimums that you can build on a standard .308 win action without doing too much gunsmith work.
The action is a 1979 Ruger M77
Magazine is currently 78mm long and there is a good 30mm of bolt between the front of the box and the bolt face.
Ideally I would want something that I can buy brass and fireform easily, alternately a production round that can fit with a bot of work and that the bolt can handle.
The reason for doing this is that I have a 458 Lott, I am about to build a new even better .308 all weather that is superbly accurate. I need something to fill the gap but dont want to retire the old girl to the safe so need to build a utility big bore rifle. Most likely use will be pigs and flinging solids at rapidly departing wounded animals.
Thanks
Ian
18 March 2010, 00:17
JORGE01How about the 416 WSM, it’s a wildcat that fits short actions. The bolt face may have to be altered. See the thread below for a discussion on the topic.
http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=4031The .416 Taylor will probably be just what you're looking for.
18 March 2010, 04:24
MacD37The new 416 Ruger would be my choice, and in the Hawkeye Alaskan rifle. The older Ruger rifles are nice but are push feed actions. I think I would simply sell the Ruger 77 or give it to one of my kids to hunt deer with, and buy one of the new Ruger Hawkeye Alaskans chambered for 416 Ruger! I would rather buy the Hawkeye African, but it isn't avaliable chambered for the 416 Ruger, and I certainly don't understand why.
....Mac >>>===(x)===> MacD37, ...and DUGABOY1
DRSS Charter member
"If I die today, I've had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"~ME 1982
Hands of Old Elmer Keith
18 March 2010, 06:32
Virginia Creeperquote:
I have a question. Is there any easily made big bore DG cartridge that complies with the 375H&H minimums that you can build on a standard .308 win action without doing too much gunsmith work.
The action is a 1979 Ruger M77
The simple answer is No.
The answer with "too much gunsmith work" is to open the Ruger 77 bolt face to 375 H&H case head diameter, and change the extractor to the new diameter.
The more "too much gunsmith work" answer is Yes.
Easier to start with a old Ruger 77 chambered in either the 7 Rem. Mag. or the 300 Win Mag. There have been a few of these put up to the full 375 H&H with some lengthening of the magazine etc. But they were very hard on the wood stocks. But this means buying a new gun. And if you were going to do that, just buy a new Ruger 77 Hawkeye in the 375 Ruger caliber.
Sincerely,
E Pluribus Unum - where out of many, we will become one.
18 March 2010, 07:17
Mike_DettorreSo "too much gunsmithing" is a relative term and availability of brass is also realtive.
The 376 steyr has an over length of 3.125 which means you only have to open the mag by about .055 inches.
Bolt face needs to be opened also and rails may need to be adjusted.
MikeLegistine actu quod scripsi?
Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.
What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
18 March 2010, 07:39
mrfuddquote:
Originally posted by MacD37:
I would rather buy the Hawkeye African, but it isn't avaliable chambered for the 416 Ruger, and I certainly don't understand why.
I asked the Ruger rep at DSC. He said that they had issues with stocks splitting in the 416. Seems to me that they could use the same methods that are applied to the RSM rifles
Hi Guys
Thanks for all of the input.
i think that you have some good points. The gunsmithing side really does weigh heavily on the decision to go ahead at all.
I was told today that the 376 Steyr had become very popular due to length and number of actions that it can work in. Have any of you had an opportunity to test this cartridge?
Mac the 416 Ruger is very interesting to me, however I still lean towards the 375 ruger in the Alaskan configuration.
Something that I do want more than any of them though is one of Michael458's big game lever guns. That will be my next project and will make up a vital part of my Big 5 horse back safaris kit. Still deciding which variation to go with, but all weather and packing a punch is what is needed.
P.S. Ph Hanke Hudson has just brought a .416 ruger in for an appy PH in Moz. Will try find out what success has been had with it. I know he was very excited about the possibilities.
19 March 2010, 03:42
RyanBquote:
Originally posted by mrfudd:
quote:
Originally posted by MacD37:
I would rather buy the Hawkeye African, but it isn't avaliable chambered for the 416 Ruger, and I certainly don't understand why.
I asked the Ruger rep at DSC. He said that they had issues with stocks splitting in the 416. Seems to me that they could use the same methods that are applied to the RSM rifles
They could, but that moves the price out of the range they want it to be in.
20 March 2010, 10:35
Mike_DettorreVlam,
Is there something about a 300 grain .375 bullet @ 2350 fps that needs testing?
MikeLegistine actu quod scripsi?
Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
21 March 2010, 23:57
jeffeossocontact micheal458 and his BM line of short action bigbores .. however, if its a tang safety, its a pushfeed
22 March 2010, 09:01
FOOBARI built a 416 Taylor on a Ruger M77 Tang model that was originally a 7x57...Not a problem with the bolt face...3/16 carbide burr with safe bottom in an air grinder mounted to the tool post, steady rest and some futzing with a jury rigged bolt holding jig in the 4 jaw. COAL is 3.25"
Today I would pick the 416 Ruger just because the ammo is factory available. I've never had a feeding problem with the 416 Taylor and I didn't do a thing to the rails or the follower.
But at 78 mm your magazine limits you cartridge choice and case size. You could use the WSM or the 284 cases and get the case capacity you need for a larger caliber, 35, 375 or 416 relatively simply...but I wouldn't really call it a DG as those Rugers were all push feed I think. You could also design your own cartridge to fit...but it might be highly questionable as to what you can get away with in South Africa.
A simple thing like rebating a 100 WSM rims to 0.513", the same as a belted mag case, would make the bolt facing job a little simpler and leave more than enough rim on the bolt. Quick and easy once the setup and cutting tool are done.
Ditto on Jeffe's suggestion...Micheal458 has some very nice, very effective offerings that will work perfectly in that Ruger action. They're listed on AmmoGuide.
And there are just a whole lot of other wildcats you could pick from, although I'm not sure just what you can acquire or is available in South Africa as far a reamers, components, dies etc, are concerned.
Mike...I agree with your assesment for the most part...but I think a 400 gr, 416 cal at the same speed works a bit better...arguably of course...
...But...those who supposedly know seem to think a 30-06 is a much better griz killer in all actuality, than say a 35 Whelen, 375 HH or 416 cal.
