Need help to find out what "spirits of nitre"
is, so I can put a rust blueing formula together. I tried a few books and the internet but could not find another name or formula to translate it to german, so you are my last hope. Thanks

Bongo,

I believe that is Nitric Acid. However, here is a previous thread you might wish to look at:

http://www.serveroptions.com/ubb/Forum5/HTML/000862.html

Spirits of nitre is referred to as ethyl nitrate in a reference I have on rust blueing.You may find it difficult to acquire.

MarkWhite and Bobster

Thank you guys for the answer. spirits of nitre is not nitric acid as this appears in Roy Dunlaps Book as one of the components.
Gunsmithing, Page 385.

I will try to get ethyl nitrate and see how it works.

If ethyl nitrate is spirits of nitre it will be a lot of fun.
Ethyl nitrate or nitric ether or C2 H5 NO3 is an extremely explosive liquid used in the organic synthesis.
I will try to get it tomorrow and will let you know.

The exact reference to ethyl nitrate that I quoted is on page 112 of Gunsmithing at Home, by John E. Traister, Stoeger Publishing, 1985. It says: ..."ethyl nitrate, also known as sweet spirits of nitre." " Several experts say to omit this chemical, because you get the same results without it, and the process may take a little longer."

Please be careful!

Reading these recipes in the older books (and a few new ones too) cracks me up, "just go to your local pharmacist and ask for high molar nitric acid" or better yet "a little cyanide to bring out the colors in your casehardening." I think if you did that these days, the police would be waiting when you went back to pick it up. I don't know where you could get some of the things they list, in the average town.

I hope you're able to get all your ingredients together; I finally just bought some of the Herter's Belgian Blue from Brownells, which I'll be trying in a couple of days. It seems like the easiest way for a hobby gunsmith / occasional bluer to get something like a true rust blue.

Best,
Todd

I ran into the same problem trying to get some nitric acid to whip up a batch of the original Niedner's formula...

Everyone thinks you're going to make a bomb... and when you try to tell them it's for bluing a gun, they look at you even more funny... Don't etchers, engravers and goldsmiths use aqua regina (nitric + hydrocloric acids)? Where do they get their stuff?

Todd- I hope you'll give us a detailed report on the Herter's formula i.e. color, even-ness of finish, durability...

"Spirits" refers to solvent type things. Alcohols, ethers and such. You do not need it, leave it out. I think it was there to help cut any remaining grease. You could put in a shot of denatured alcohol for the same effect but, it is not really necessary.

Scot

quote:

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Originally posted by bongo500:
Need help to find out what "spirits of nitre"
is, so I can put a rust blueing formula together. I tried a few books and the internet but could not find another name or formula to translate it to german, so you are my last hope. Thanks

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You could also use Mark Lee Slow Rust Blue #3. Great stuff. I attempted to make my own solution a couple of times but gave up when obtaining the right ingredients became a serious hassle.

This post "re-inspired" me to continue my research on rust bluing...

The Niedner formula requires 4 ingredients, Nitric Acid, Hydrochloric Acid, Iron Nails, and Distilled Water... This mix is supposed to give a nice color and near impervious wear characteristics if you believe Dunlap's comments... Too many coats, however, will pit your steel... You have to be careful.

Hypothetically, these components SHOULD be easy to find and obtain... With the post 9/11 paranoia this is not so. A web search on metal etching yielded several sites where you could order the necessary acids in small quantities- about $15/pint plus a $20 UPS hazardous material fee (must be shipped by truck). Therefore, a 2 pint batch (plenty)is going to be upwards of $50 assuming you could find some pure iron for free to dissolve in the acids... I won't be whining over the cost of Plinktons anymore but I'd like to try something that might give better results...

What is the best available rust blue solution?

[This message has been edited by DeBee (edited 03-11-2002).]

Debee - I have used Pilkingtons, Herters Belgian blue, Gun Goddess and Mark Lee Slow rust blue. Out of all 4 Mark Lee works the best for me. Thats all I use anymore.

The correct name is ethyl nitrite spirits.
It is a 4 percent alcohol solution of C2 H2 NO2. It is not ethyl nitrate.

Production and use was prohibited in the USA quite a few years ago. I got this information from Brownells.

I am trying to find it in Germany.

Bill,
Who carry's the Mark Lee #3? I checked Brownell's catalog and they list #1 and 2 but I didn't see #3. I like to try everything and this is one I've never tried.
Thank's Ron

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Bill Soverns:
[B]You could also use Mark Lee Slow Rust Blue #3. Great stuff.

Ron,

You can call Mark direct and order it.

952-461-2114.

Bongo

I was succesfull with rust blue with Nieder formula , I can mail a copy of the article just e-mail me your address , also you need very very little Nitric acid to made 100 cc3 of the formula for a rifle/ shotgun rust blue job , just ask you near pharmacy to prepare the formula or ask just for 50 cc3 and you'll prepare a litre
Daniel

daniel375@terra.es

Guys, As a real life Organic Chemist I can tell you that you won't be able to buy either Ethyl Nitrite or ethyl Nitrate anywhere. They exist only in specific solutions prepared from Ethyl alcohol and Conc. Nitric Acid (12M). Don't even try and go there BECAUSE THEY ARE BOTH EXTREMELY UNSTABLE AND EXPLOSIVE compounds for which there is little or no use and which are too dangerous to isolate..
If you add Conc. Nitric acid to absolute ethanol under controlled conditions you will have an immediate reaction ( read Violent) and produce what was once know as sweet spirits of Nitre. The oder is somewhat sweet smelling due to the aldehydes and esters produced by the oxidation process. Nitrate esters are also produced as well as lots of other really potent Carcinogens.
Stick with the Niedner formula as it stays away from these things and works pretty well if you can control the humidity of your chamber.. If you want to get some small quantities of Conc. Nitric acid, I think you would be better off trying to get some through your local High school Chemistry lab. I get mine by ordering through chemical supply houses, however, I have a specific license for otherwise restricted materials.-Rob

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
[B]Guys, As a real life Organic Chemist I can tell

Couldn't agree more. I have made my foray into rust blueing and express blueing. I work in a laboratory and have taken may college chemistry classes. BUY THE COMMERCIAL SOLUTIONS!!! It will be chaper, safer and give better results. Express blues are something I don't mess with anymore. Granted, I did some nice jobs, but, this stuff scares me now. It contains mecuric chloride, and some potent oxidizers. It is very toxic and potentally explosive. I personally had an accident that sent me to the hospital and caused me to miss a week of work, while mixing this stuff. FORGET IT, FORGET IT, FORRGET IT!! A little knowledge can be a very dangerious thing. I know more than most about chemistry and still got hurt.

There are old Rust Bluers and bold Rust Bluers, but no old bold Rust Bluers.-Rob

Scot - a big amen from over here. I have piddled around with mixing my own brews and quit after I got my bench on fire. Had my gloves, shirt, safety glasses, bench all on fire. Scared the living hell out of me. I still dont know what happened. Nor do I really care. I quit screwing around with home brewed solutions after that. The only thing I keep around is a bottle of nitric acid. If I run up on a part that wont rust right I put a dab of that on it to kick start it. Makes me sweat just opening the bottle.

The legendary barrel maker Harry Pope lost the sight in one eye using a rust blue formula.

Yup, that HNO3 will start a good fire all by itself. Good stuff.

I get to play with the "trace metals grade" HNO3 and H2SO4 for my mercury research. Not too much it won't...digest.

OK you guys now I'll tell you a little known fact.Known only to us really old chemists.There is an anhydrous form of Nitric acid ( THIS is NOT your 12Molar concentrated Nitric acid). It is produced by DISTILLING Concentrated Sulphuric acid from anhydrous Potassium nitrate. THIS IS THE CATS MEOW! You had better know some serious chemistry before you touch this stuff! OXIDATION BE ITS NAME!
Most Organic compounds will ignite or explode on Contact. However, gun barrels will spontaneously devlop a classbook perfect blue due to instant oxidation. It's the holy grail of blueing. Unfortuinately, I believe only I have lived to tell about it. I'm not kidding!-Rob

NOW you have my interest piqued!! I immediately thought of the acids I work with and nothing comes to mind. I have the 98.9% 1.96-1.98g/cc3 'cids. Top drawer for the trace metals and just about anything else. Some red fuming but that's just enriched with NO2. Hmmmm...

Rob, we need to get together sometime.

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OK I found the article on the rust bluing in the NRA gunsmith guide updated article by R.L.Jamison best part they work with the same acid but guve you the right density , the formula in metric it's 6.4 grams hydrocloric acid , density 1.19 grams /cc or 7.55 grams density 1.16 grams /cc ; 8 grams nitric acid , density 1.42 grams / cc dilutes with 25 cc destilled water and 1.6 grams of pure iron filling , bring the solution to 100 cc with destilled water , I translated to grains and use my loading scale to prepare 100 cc and it's enought for two rifles , it should be keep in an dark brown glass , it deterirates with exposition to sunlight , and life it's for three weeks , iron filling should be real iron not an alloy with crome or vanadium or so on as found in machinery steel chips ( I found old small nails work OK ), you need a damp box if not have at least 65% humidity in the air , and the most important part are the brush , a special one only to work on carding the rust with very light brushes with .003 bristel diameter , (not use on any other surface or you'll contaminate it ) , OK be safe use all the protection for your skin don't breathe vapors and so on read about acids before you start to mix it.
Daniel

Roger and Rob,

You both have my attention as well. If you have a mixture for sale Im open to buying some and giving it a try. Im always up for trying new rust blueing solutions. I just dont want to mix them myself.

Sorry, but I won't make any Anhydrous Nitric. I value my skin too highly! I have a standard hot tank bluing system and even that stuff from Brownells is nasty to work with. The results,however, are very satisfactory(professional grade) and I'm really not that impressed with rust blueing! It's alot more difficult to do then you think from reading someones book. Frankly, so is hot tank blueing! Anyway, I'm sure there would be some serious restrictions concerning shipping and handling.-Rob

It's the holy grail of blueing. Unfortuinately, I believe only I have lived to tell about it. I'm not kidding!-Rob[/B][/QUOTE]

Don't encourage people, you and I know this is BS. Someone might take you seriously. You then share responsibility for their injury. This thread is getting as dangerius as the Firecracker gun thread a while back.

Take some advice from someone who works with really bad chemicals on a regular basis. Don screw with it!!!

Scot

[This message has been edited by scot (edited 03-15-2002).]

Scot- Think about this carefully and do some real research! I'm not Kidding.-Rob

No one is encouraging anybody. We can talk about chemicals all day long, doesn't make us mad scientists. Well...maybe not mad but...

Rob, talked to one of my professors and he recognized what you had written. He said when he went to school at New York U in the organic wing, the organo-metallic chemists would make the ultra concentrated by heating to just below boiling, drive off the NO2 and water. He said, "it was a real fun place, you walk by the dingy lab and in the hoods would be several large flasks over hot plates slowly giving off the red fumes". They used it to clean their glassware before going into complex reactions as they didn't want the chance of contamination. Would take way too much time to back up.
Now they use chromic acid and sulphuric.

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Roger and Rob

You guys are light years ahead of me. How ever did you know that Phil Pilkington has worked out a process of rust bluing where he places the metal parts in a plexiglass box, then puts a few drops of acid (I dont remember what kind but can look it up) in a couple of differant dishes, closes the lid, observes the parts untill they rust the right amount, then boils and cards as usual and repeats as usual. He calls it appropriately fume bluing. Says he prefers it because it forms rust so evenly, no streaks or spots.

Rodger and Craftsman- Oh its true,when I was in Grad school at MIT in the early 70's we were interested in the synthesis of Cubane nitrate esters and got involved with making anhydrous Nitric acid as a reagent. This was part of a grant payed for by Dupont which gave me access to some of their more experienced chemists who suggested it to our research groupt. Since I had access to it, I used some of the anhydrous Nitric acid to rust blue a few guns and the results were stunning. Nevertheless, I would stay away from it big time as it can cause a spontaneous fire on contact with many materials. As I've said rust bluing is good for doubles that are soldered together, otherwise good old Hot Tank bluing is the way to go. I have also done molten Nitrate blueing and while not nearly as dangerous works pretty well. You can get some gorgeous colors on properly prepared steel. I'll post some pictures when I get a chance. Interestingly, really not many people outside of Hercules or Dupont have alot of knowledge about Nitration reactions today and alot of it has actually been redacted from the literature due to the governments concerns about people using this knowledge improperly. It also has very limited applications in Organic synthesis.
With that said,GOD I hate people who think they can control what others say think or do. Just because a person has taken A FEW CHEMISTRY COURSES doesn't impress me. We use this web site to pass on knowledge to each other.If we want to talk about Nitrate Blueing with dangerous chemicals then we are sure going to do so. It's the same stupid thinking that gets people to put trigger locks on their guns. Sorry but no trigger locks on my mind!
Any of you guys going to SCI in Las Vegas next week? -Rob

Rob, you know more than I. I also don't want to be the thought police. I am just trying to point out that someone might actually try it. There is a big difference between controlled conditions and good safety gear at Dow or Dupont and some kid in his garage with a mayonaise jar and a blow torch. I have seen enough burned up Meth labs and dead cookers to know how short sighted the average Joe might be.

Enough said, everyone be carefull and look before you leap.

Scot

quote:

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Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
Rodger and Craftsman- Oh its true,when I was in Grad school at MIT in the early 70's we were interested in the synthesis of Cubane nitrate esters and got involved with making anhydrous Nitric acid as a reagent. This was part of a grant payed for by Dupont which gave me access to some of their more experienced chemists who suggested it to our research groupt. Since I had access to it, I used some of the anhydrous Nitric acid to rust blue a few guns and the results were stunning. Nevertheless, I would stay away from it big time as it can cause a spontaneous fire on contact with many materials. As I've said rust bluing is good for doubles that are soldered together, otherwise good old Hot Tank bluing is the way to go. I have also done molten Nitrate blueing and while not nearly as dangerous works pretty well. You can get some gorgeous colors on properly prepared steel. I'll post some pictures when I get a chance. Interestingly, really not many people outside of Hercules or Dupont have alot of knowledge about Nitration reactions today and alot of it has actually been redacted from the literature due to the governments concerns about people using this knowledge improperly. It also has very limited applications in Organic synthesis.
With that said,GOD I hate people who think they can control what others say think or do. Just because a person has taken A FEW CHEMISTRY COURSES doesn't impress me. We use this web site to pass on knowledge to each other.If we want to talk about Nitrate Blueing with dangerous chemicals then we are sure going to do so. It's the same stupid thinking that gets people to put trigger locks on their guns. Sorry but no trigger locks on my mind!
Any of you guys going to SCI in Las Vegas next week? -Rob

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[This message has been edited by scot (edited 03-16-2002).]

Now besides all the above, rust bluing is the nastiest job that I can think off and in order to do a perfect job one must and should do it all the time..It is an aquired skill and requires practice like golf..and short cuts like bead blasting prior to blueing etc. etc. produce a quasi blue finish. Do you have any idea how many smithies give the old rust blue a dip in the hot tank when all is said and done!!!

The best alternative I know is send that puppy to Doug Turnbull who has one man that does one after the other day in and day out and he is a wonder to talk to and his bluing is just awesome...

I used to do quite a bit of rust bluing but it can be a pain, and the weather can really mess things up..I just send them to Turnbull these days.

Rust blue is the best metal finish in the world in my opinnion and when performed on smooth metal (not bead blasted) it will last 5 lifetimes and is not prone to rust under most any conditions with a little reasonable care.

There are some very knowledgeable smiths proclaiming some hot blue processes are just as good or better than rust blue, and considering the source that recently discussed this with me, I would have to consider it as a valid possibility, but I don't want to believe that, so I won't.

For the brave souls out there that are determined to go fourth with this, I also suggest one of the prepared rust blue formulas from Brownell or others..Mark Lee, Pilkingtons and others all do a decent job.

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com