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I hope someone who knows the answers chimes in here. I too would like to know. Joe | |||
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I can't answer the question about formulas but I don't see how the toe height can be deemed "improper" until it gets to unusable proportions. You are the customer and if that is the look you like then so be it. That doesn't mean that every stockmaker would jump at the chance to build it. You might have to shop around. | |||
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I'll throw out my thoughts as a target. I'm as opinionated on the subject as most. My opinions have been shaped by the works of professionals from the 20's until present, stockmaking classes, what I think looks good, and what I think works. For a scope sighted bolt action, in most simple terms......I find the Jack O'Connor guideline works well. Height of comb nose to clear the open bolt and a further drop of 1/2 inch at heel. The distance from heel to toe is defined by the size of the butt plate or recoil pad that will be used. The toe line is defined by a line from toe to rear tang screw of the bottom metal. Slightly higher is OK......lower will start to bring about the "canoe paddle" look. Regardless of style of grip....open or close.....the top line of the grip, from upper tang to comb nose, should lie on a parallel line with the toe line of the stock. If you run the toe line through the grip you should approximate a straight grip....ala Winchester 94. I think this is a key measurement for good looks. It's also good to remember this line when shaping the stock. It will keep you from getting a "wasp-waist" behind the grip area. There is a direct relationship between the comb nose and the grip cap. Pretend to curl your hand around a grip, check the relationship of your pinky finger to the ball of your thumb. Now align your wrist for either a close grip or a straight grip. The angle of the wrist changes, but the relationship of pinky to ball of thumb remains the same. That is the measurement of comb nose to grip cap. And most usually will be satisfied by a vertical line that bisects both the middle of the grip cap and the arc of the comb nose. I draw every stock I shape on a large piece of freezer paper.......whether I'm creating a pattern or finishing a semi. There are sometimes some concessions when working with semi-inlets, but I'd sooner work them out with a pencil and eraser rather than a file. Big kickers are frequently built with very straight stocks.....comb line parallel to the bore. This will have a tendency to bring up the toe line quite a bit. If a commensurately larger recoil pad is used it's not as noticeable. I don't care for straight stocks, either in looks or fit, but there certainly are people who can do magic with that style. And I'm sure the style is appreciated if you have a thumb-sized hole at the muzzle. There are some special considerations if the stock is for some action other than a bolt. A great variety of singles have tangs that require special considerations...or modification. Steven Dodd Hughes is a contemporary stocker that does great work with period singles and levers. GV | |||
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GrandView, thanks for some great information. I agree with the statement about canoe paddle stocks and wasp waists. Most of the small to medium caliber Dakota rifle I have seen suffer from both conditions. Thier heavy rifles have a far better stock profile than the lighter models. One question for you though. Why is it that most prefer a very open grip on heavy recoiling rifles? The typical Weatherby grip shape is moderatly closed and I have never had any problems in the 416wby that I used to own. The new Winchester Safari rifles have a very open grip and I dislike it very much. What are you thought on grip shape? Joe | |||
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| <allen day> |
I don't care for open, shotgun-style grips, either. I prefer the American classic style stock design, as perfected by Al Biesen, Dale Goens, Monte Kennedy, Jerry Fisher, and Earl Milliron in the decades following WWII. For scope use, proper control of the rifle, and for minimizing the effects of recoil, this remains the all-time best stock design ever developed. If anyone thinks that those old pre-war British style stocks offer faster handling, better control of the rifle, or less felt recoil, all I can say is, it's most revealing to shoot something like a scoped Holland & Holland magazine rifle in .375 H&H and an American classic-style rifle in the same chambering, such as my Echols-built Model 70 in .375 H&H, side-by-side with the same ammo. Such a test will remove all doubt that the American-classic design is superior on all counts. I think the current open-grip/pancake cheekpiece fad is more a matter of style than it is function....... AD | ||
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Grandview and others The reason I ask about a specific measurement is becasue every once in awhile I will read of a person who has a "bespoke" rifle, and they will claim that they can close their eyes, mount the rifle to their shoulder, open their eyes, and the crosshairs will be exactly where they are supposed to be. I have tried this with several factory stocks, mostly Winchester Featherweights and Supergrades, and none of them does that. It seems like I always have to raise my right shoulder up a bit. And with regard to the size of the recoil pad, I look at photos of say David Millers rifles. it almost looks like he is raising that line from the comb to the heel and them using a rather large recoil pad so as to keep his toe line proper. So again, is their a measurement one can take of an individual person,coupled with a measurement of the bore cener line to the crosshairs, such that when one mounts a rifle it will be where it is supposed to be? Blue | ||
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Apart from more or less educated guessing, the only way to really conform a stock to an individual is via a (custom/old world) stockmaker by trade who will use an articulated gun. Don't forget to add the required amount of cast off so that the sights line up with eyes closed. | |||
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Quote: Heh Heh.... The lead-in passage could have been taken from Phil Pilkington's lecture in 1983. Phil's contention was the lower fingers of the grip must have some "purchase" to hold the rifle to the shoulder and maintain control. He also maintained the open grip was a double-trigger shotgun invention........allowing an unimpeded shifting of the hand to pull the 2nd trigger. I would find it difficult to take issue with the evolution of the grip area in American custom guns. And to a lesser extent some commercial offerings. It is surely taking a "modified-open" movement. Whether it's losing some functionality in the process might be open to conjecture. I don't feel strongly about defending or denigrating the style. I'm inclined to believe it's an area that doesn't have a "Universal Truth". I do think it's a "style" issue. Take any Gun Digest or custom gun pictorial from 25 years ago and throw a straightedge from toe to bottom of trigger guard. A portion of the grip cap will fall below that line on older customs. In virtually all current custom guns the grip cap lies above this line. As the length of the inner curve of the grip is basically constant........allowing surface for the fingers and distance to trigger.......the grip curve has obviously been stretched and raised a bit. Aesthetically, the gunstock is comprised of two graceful arcs that extend from the tip to the butt. One running along the top edge of the stock across the comb.....the other along the bottom edge of the stock and down the toe line. When the trigger guard and magazine are in the picture........ the lower arc has the trigger guard, grip cap edge, and toe as elements of, or points on that line. To my eye the current style(s) are more aesthetically pleasing. The grip seems more in harmony with the flow of the stock.....rather than a hang down or intrusion. The latter being an extreme description. Much like the toe line meeting the rear tang screw.....above that line is more acceptable than below.....a grip cap above the line of toe to trigger guard will look better than below that line. Whether it's a functional compromise is a personal issue...... much as the look itself. GV | |||
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Allen Would you say this qualifies as an open-grip/pancake cheekpiece fad? It surely must be a fairly powerful round coming out of the end of that barrel. http://www.accuratereloading.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=511426&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1 | |||
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Some pictures to supplement the discussion...... Wiebe http://www.champlinarms.com/gunphotos/wiebey884.jpg Goens http://www.hallowellco.com/Goens_264_right.JPG http://www.hallowellco.com/Goens_264_left.JPG Echols http://www.hallowellco.com/Echols-Burgess-416-left.jpg Biesen http://www.griffinhowe.com/gunpics/bie220726.jpg http://www.griffinhowe.com/gunpics/bie217406.jpg | |||
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| <Guest> |
Well, I know that many people througout the ages, including Cactus Jack O'Connor, loved Biesen Rifles. However, it just seems to me like his drop from the comb to the heel is quite severe. Grandview, couldn't you find a David Miller to put up there? Blue | ||
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