Hey guys, A friend of mine has a Ruger Mark II in 257 Roberts that doesn't shoot to his satisfaction so I told him I'd play around w/ it some and see if I can help him. Shot it last week for first time... TWO shots at 100 yards (third one OFF the paper) formed a nice tight group of 3 1/2" w/ factory Hornday 117 gr spitzer. Admittedly, the trigger is HORRIBLE (very long and hard) , but I honestly think it shoots too bad to blame it all on the trigger. He'd like to buy a replacement trigger for it, but I suggested waiting until seeing if it'll shoot better, first. Tonight I'm going to check the scope mounts (factory Ruger) and rings, then shoot again. I'll clean the barrel also, but doubt he's shot enough for it to be very dirty. Next will change out the scope, although it's a 3-9X Leupold. Will look at the bedding and action screws, as well. Barrel channel is very TIGHT, so will probably end up floating the barrel. Do you have any other suggestions, especially anything particulary useful for this gun? Thanks in advance for your help. Gary T.

Well a Timney trigger couldn't hurt...

And FYI, Ruger shapes their barrel channel to put upward pressure on the barrel right at the end, seems to work most of the time.

Please let us know what you find as a fix.

Roi

I wouldn't change the scope just yet. If you brought it too me, first things I would do would be to check the scope mounts and guard screws, float the barrel and check the crown and recrown it if needed. Maybe the rifle doesn't like the Hornady stuff. I'd take it back to the range and try different ammo, then, based on how she performed, I would decide where to go from here.

I think that angled front action screw treaks/bends the reciever. I messed with my ruger alot and found the reciever was getting stressed/bent when torqued down . I relieved it and bedded the rear tang and front pad and recoil lug without alot of screw torque while the epoxy set up. Floated the barrel also Then it actually shot better

Mine before bedding would actually group better with the action screws loose rather than thightened down . Thats how I found the reciever was getting bent. When I was messing with it. I cut some shims out of a credit card, for the rear tang and a piece under the front pad behind the recoil lug. That Made it group tight. Just 2 contact points at the tang and front pad.

First there a link for doing the trigger yourself if you have the ability. M77 mk II trigger

Second; the bedding is a huge problem I think. My .257 Roberts is a Ruger M77. I have two stocks, one of wich is glass bedded. The screws need to be snug but not tight. The barrel channel has upward press from the factory. Before you remove it, try shimming the action to get some clearance and see how it does. I'd shoot the action "loose" before bedding or floating the barrel to see what it does. Mine needed bedding and snug screws. I can ruin it by over tightening the action screws. Mine likes the front fairly tight and the back nearly loose. Nate

First thing to do is tighten the action screws properly . Loosen all of them then torque up the front good and tight . This pulls the action back and down firmly into the bedding like it was designed to do . Then just snug up the rear screw so it'll stay put , just some moderate tightness . The middle screw you turn in just enough to get the floorplate to latch properly , no torque to speak of at all .

8 or 10 Rugers have all shot well for me using this torque sequence , without ever messing with the bedding. I have to wonder how many of the Ruger accuracy complainers have the rear and middle screws tightened to hell , putting a terriffic bind on the action .

All the screw tightening advise is great. Front tight then rear tight but you should check to see if the center screw needs shimmed all of my 3 mod 77 had to be shimmed. this screw should be last and well snuged but not overly tight.

I have a 77 MK 2 in .257 roberts.
mine is the RL model. The timney trigger is excelent. I put the factory ruger spring back in beacuse the timney was just light with there trigger spring. i also free floated the barrel, and screwed arond with the stock bolts. I keep the front one snug the middle and front ones just tight enough not to fall out , It will shoot most loads into an inch and a a half but loves the 100 grain Barnes tripple shock over 46 grains of H-414. drives tacks with that load ! ...tj3006

Hey guys,
Thanks for all the great recs. Thought I'd give you a less than encouraging update after doing some work on it and shooting some more today. The rings/base are all tight. (Even managed to shear a cheap torx wrench.) I shot 3 groups at 50 yards, each group after some sort of work having been done.

First, I cleaned it well. Still dirty after 20 min soak w/ foam cleaner, so then gave it an overnight soak w/ foam. Still not clean enough so then used Shooter's Choice/Kroil mix, dry patches, bronze brush, Sweet's (brief use), and JB's. Ended up coming out pretty clean.
Group #1, four shots, over all size 2.9 inches. Shots 1, 3 were 0.2" apart while shots 2, 4 were 0.8" apart.

Adjusted action screws as in sdgunslinger's post (several guys at the Reloading forum made similar suggestion) and shot again.
Group #2, three shot group only 0.79"!

Thought I was really onto something at this point. Decided to lap the bore some w/ JB's Bore Bright. Made 50 passes.
Group #3, four shots, was another DISASTER... Shots 1,3 only 0.8" apart and shots 2, 4 1.2" apart, but overall group size 3.6"!

Totally frustrated, I then shot a developmental load w/ my 6X50R Bellm 14" Contender--3 shots into 0.8" at 100 yards.

The large groups have a lot of horizontal variation, but not much vertical. Strange, but noticed when cleaning the barrel that the cleaning rod seems to "jump" about the half-way point on both fowarwad and backwards passes. I'm beginning to worry there's something bad wrong. (Remember, these are only 50 yard groups.) What I plan to do next: Shoot some rounds I loaded for his grandsons' 257 Roberts w/ 90 gr Sierrs BTHP/Blue Dot; swap out the scope on it w/ a Leupold 4X of mine that I know to be ok; possibly make up a load w/ 85 or 100 gr NBT (and either H4895 or RL15); e-mail Ruger to see how much more work I can do (including floating the barrel) without voiding the warranty ; e-mail Ruger to see if there is a factory approved 'smith locally who could inspect it. I know my friend would rather not just sell the gun. He has 2 grandsons hunting w/ 257 Roberts and he would like to have one of his own when he hunts w/ them.

What do you think?

Gary T.

Well, one can do a lot of things online with Ruger, including, but not limited to, order products , request an instruction manual , and request a catalog , but one can NOT contact the service dept! Guess I'll have to call/fax them when I get a chance... Gary T.

If you think you feel a loose spot half way down, then slug the bore with a soft lead slug, that will tell you instantly if you hit a loose or tight spot.

The other thing is the 117 grain bullet may not be stabilizing. Try some 100's . I talked with a fellow at Ruger quite a bit that had a No.1 in .257Roberts and his rifle shot abismally with anything over 105 grains. IIRC he talked about keyholes with 117's and 120's.

Rusty, Do you have detailed instructions on how to slug the bore? What would I use for slug and where would I find it? (I've never slugged a bore before. ) I'm not really sure what kind of information slugging the bore would give me.

Yeah, I think I'll try some the 90 Sierra BTHP and 100 gr NBT.

Faxed a letter to Ruger today detailing the problems and my actions thus far, but no response, yet.

Gary T.

Slugging a bore is realy quite easy.
First why then how.

When you push an oversize lead slug through the bore it will naturally conform to bore demensions. After the slug has been sized by driving it through the muzzle (I know that sounds horrible but bear with me) it is quite easy to push it all the way through the barrel and out the chamber. When pushing the slug through you will feel any loose spots, the slug will "jump" through them, you will feel any tight spots too, the slug will have to be driven (gently) though them.

An example from real life:
The sug pushes with resistance for the first 1.5" or so then gets really easy to move for the next 10 inches then it gets tight again for an inch or so then loose again for rest of the bore. The culprit, the front sight was silver soldered to a hammer forged barrel and the barrel stress relieved and shrunk the last 1.5" of the bore a few tenths, (Thats .0001"/tenth.
) The barrel band was also silver soldered on about 10" from the muzzle and so this area also stress relieved an shrunk a few tenths.

NOTE: hammer forged barrels alway get tighter when they stress releive. Button rifled barrels always get looser when they stress relieve.

What the example shows us is a rifle barrel with constrictions, while we could probably, and quite happily live with the muzzle choking, the barrel band choke will cause no end of heart ache and the barrel will need to be changed out.

The How:
You will need to get the following:
1) a pure lead slug just over groove diameter, a round fishing sinker works really well.
2) A small rag 2 to3" sqr)
3) medium weight oil 20-40 weight
4) small brass punch 6in long or so(smaller than bore, but a good fit)
5) golf tee, cut off short so it has a flat end.
6) brass rod smaller than bore but a loose slip fit not a sloppy fit, but loose and longer than bore by an inch or so. (or you can use several 6 to 8" lengths)
7) hammer 20 oz. max. so it is easier to control.

1)Action open and empty.
1a) make sure the barrel is clean.
2)Insert rag into chamber.
3)Lube bore liberally, don't be stingy with the oil.
4)place butt of rifle against floor on a pad (so you don't crack the butt plate), muzzle up and secure in a padded vice.
5)Tap the slug into the bore with the hammer, get it started, but don't touch the crown with the hammer.
6) Use the golf tee to seat the slug in the bore

from here the slug should push with resistance but you shouldn't have to hammer it.

7) use the short brass rod with a block of wood over the top so you can hand push it to get the slug deeper in the muzzle while feeling for restrictions or expansions in the bore.If you find any, mark the rod and compare it to any features on the outside of the barrel.
8) use the longer brass rod(s) to push the slug out of the bore and into the chamber, all the while feeling for tight or loose spots.
When the slug pushes out of the chamber you are done.

It sounds much worse than it is. I'm sure if I left something out somebody else will jump in.

If a barrel is of uniform dimension then you can measure the slug with a micrometer and get bore and groove dimensions also. But quite naturally the slug will only give you dims at the tightest diameter.

That's pretty close to the way I slug a bore but with one exception. Because a pure lead slug is so easliy deformed upon entering the bore, after introducing the lead slug into the bore, I will insert a rod from the chamber end to serve as an anvil so that I can swage the slug tightly against the bore before advancing it down the bore. Though I have done it both ways, I have found for me anyway, that this additional step produces a little better result. Watch that crown folks!

Great tip malm! I hadn't thought of trying that.

Try a Tubb barrel lapping kit. I did and groups from my M77 .30-06 shrunk by 1".

Did you slug that barrel yet?
I'm interested to know if that barrel really has a loose spot.
I see you have recieved quite a bit of advice over on the reloading page too.

Hey Guys, thanks for all the good suggestions. Rusty and Malm, thanks for the instructions on slugging the bore; I've printed and saved the instructions. I've not slugged the bore yet, but still have it on my "to do list."

Time for an update...
After 2 days of rain, I finally got a chance to shoot some more Sat PM. Didn't make anymore changes,except ammo. My buddy also had a box of Hornady factory ammo, non-"Light Magnum," w/ 117 gr bullets. He had given me multiple boxes at one time so that I didn't realize that the earlier factory ammo I had shot was all "Light Magnum." These regular factory loads shot much better than the "Light Magnum." The regular loads shot a 3 shot group of 1.3" at 50 yards and 3.6" at 10 yards (w/ shots #2-4 1.7"). Still no tack-driver, but much better.

I also shot the handloads I'd developed for his grandson's hunting. This uses the 90 gr. Sierra BTHP/22.0 gr Blue Dot/Hornady brass (has had the primer pocket uniformed and the flash hole deburred)/Rem 9 1/2 primers. This load put 3 shots into only 0.62" at 50 yards and 4 shots into 2.6" at 100 yards (3 of shots into 2.6"). I'm encouraged that at least w/ these loads I can shoot at 100 yards, now!

Hope to shoot some more Wed PM after lapping the rings. Will change scope and shoot again if still not satisfied. Will work up a load w/ H4895 (possibly H414 as well, if needed) and Nosler 100 gr BT. My buddy says to go ahead and float the barrel if necessary. Unfortunately, Ruger has not responded yet to my two faxes. I'd really like to know if floating the barrel still voids the warranty. May call them also Wed PM.

Gary T.

Here is a trick we used to use on Rugers that had grouping problems.
Take a soft plastic bottle like a Clorox bleach bottle. Cut a strip of it about a half-inch wide. Punch several front-screw diameter holes about 1" apart with a punch. Trim excess material so that you now have a washer. Put this disk/washer over the angled front screw and tighten down, but not too much. You'd be surprised at the number of rifles, both 77s and #1s that all of a sudden started to group.

Hey guys,
Another update. Snugged up the original scope real tight, lapped the rings, and blasted away:
50 yards-Factory 117 gr (non-"light magnum") 2.2" (w/ 2 shots 0.64")
50 yards-Handload (22 gr Blue Dot/90 gr Sierra BTHP) 0.67" (w/ 2 shots in nearly one hole)
100 yards-Same 90 Sierra handload 4.3" (w/2 shots 1.5" apart).
100 yards-Handload (35 gr H4895/100 gr NBT) 1.4" (w/ 2 shots 0.5")
100 yards-Handload (36 gr H4895/100 gr NBT) 3.0" (w/ 2 shots 0.6")
Looks like I'm getting nowhere.... I suspect I should go ahead and float the barrel +/- bed the action, but just for my curiosity, will first make a thin plastic washer for the angled action screw (as suggested above) and swap out the scope. The barrel channel will allow a dollar bill to pass starting about 2 1/3" in front of the chamber to about 2 1/3" behind the tip of the forend.

Any specific suggestions for bedding the action? I've only bedded one action before (Model 70), but it turned out well.

Thanks,
Gary T.

quote:

Strange, but noticed when cleaning the barrel that the cleaning rod seems to "jump" about the half-way point on both fowarwad and backwards passes. I'm beginning to worry there's something bad wrong.

This statment more than any other you have made still jumps out at me.

Slug the barrel before spending time or money on anything else. If you have a loose spot in the middle, all the other work you are wanting to do is a total and complete waste of time. There is nothing short of a barrel change that will make this girl shoot if it has a bad spot in the barrel.

I'd bed the action before floating the barrel. I've yet to see a bedded action shoot worse than before, but I have seen where removing the pressure point in the barrel channel had negative effects.

Have you inspected the crown closely? Maybe I missed it. But it seems to be very random. Have you measured how tight the action screws are? You may try to back off of the torque a smidge all the way around.

I have a Roberts in two different stocks. One is short for the wife. The short one is bedded & floated, it doesn't shoot any better than when it's in the full stock that hasn't been messed with at all, but the screws are snug only. If you over tighten them the groups get worse.

Nate

Hey guys,
Received a letter this weekend from Ruger that basically said to send it back to them for them to inspect. Therefore, I'll not be doing any stock floating/action bedding. Will shoot it Friday after changing scopes, albeit just for my curiosity.

Rusty, I agree that I need to slug the barrel, although again, primarily for my curiosity at this point. In your instructions, you said to use a brass rod. I don't have any brass rods, but do have a steel (non-coated) cleaning rod as well as various sized wooden dowels. Would either of these work? We don't have a good gun store locally so would probably have to order the brass rod, otherwise. Looks like this little experiment is coming to an unrevealing end...
Gary T.

Bought my brass rod at the local hardware store. I've also seen some at the welding supply store although I don't recall thicknesses there.

what Herb said.

Thanks, guys!
Gary T.