More of an FFL question rather than gunsmithing, so bear with me-

I live in Illinois, and have a person in the adjoining state (missouri) who wants to buy a handgun of mine. Since we live less than 45 minutes apart, can this be done face to face without an FFL transfer or does it need to go through an FFL? If this can be done face to face, does it make a difference if he drives to me so we do it in Illinois, or if I go to Missouri and we do it at his house?

If it needs to go through an FFL, does it matter if it is in Illinois (my usual guy) or would it be best to go through a Mo. FFL? If that, I'd just drop the gun off.

TIA Guys!

I can't answer that Mark, but I'll spout off anyway. I'm not sure its all about federal law, there may be some state laws that apply in your area.

Crossing state lines to sell or buy a handgun smacks of federal jurisdiction on one hand, but at the same time the feds never get involved with non-ffl gun show sales unless they get enough volume to suspect it is for commerce and not a private sale (the Tulsa shows being an example).

I do believe an FFL transfer is required and shouldn't make any difference in which state

it's done . Personally because you reside in Illinois , I would have it done in Missouri .

Especially seeing as the recipient of the sale resides there .

Just an opinion . Check your local state gun laws on the net .

No, FTF would be illegal given that he is a resident of another state. In addition, "your" FFL holder cannot "sell" him the gun, it has to be transfered to an FFL holder in his state, which subject to unknown state laws, you can send to his FFL personally, assuming the FFL will accept it.

quote:

Originally posted by Doc224/375:
I do believe an FFL transfer is required and shouldn't make any difference in which state

it's done .

WRONG!

The transfer must take place in the state the new owner has residence.

The transfer must go through an FFL in his state. You can meet him at a dealer that will place the firearm in his books, then do the transfer. Or you can ship the firearm to an FFL that will put it on his books, and then do the transfer.

Interesting.....I was under the opinion that I (as a private citizen) can sell or buy a handgun face to face without an FFL transfer or background check any time I want.

I called the Illinois State Police a little while ago. According to the officer I spoke with it is legal to do a face to face transfer between private parties where the buyer is from Missouri.

However, to be on the safe side I'm going to call the Missouri State Police later and talk to someone there to make certain they have no issue with it either.

If they are favorable to this I'm thinking about getting final verification from BATF just to make sure all the bases are covered, since I guess it is possible to follow state laws and still violate a federal law.

Federal law allows FTF within the state for both pistols and rifles.

Transfers across state lines require an FFL to be involved.

Long arms can be purchased across state lines from an FFL. At one time, only from bordering states, but I don't think that is the case anymore. For example, a resident of TN can walk in and buy a shotgun from WalMart in AR. Can a resident from LA walk into a TN Walmart and buy a Ruger 10/22? I think so, but am not sure.

Handguns must go through an FFL in the same state as the buyer if the seller resides in another state.

Local laws and local, individual FFL indiosyncracies can make the above more cumbersome, time consuming or even illegal.



.



Edit
From the ATF's FAQ

(B1) To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA? [Back]

A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(d), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

(B2) From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA? [Back]

A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee's premises in any State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser resides. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and (5), 922(b)(3), 27 CFR 478.29 and 478.30]

(B3) May an unlicensed person obtain a firearm from an out-of-State source if the person arranges to obtain the firearm through a licensed dealer in the purchaser’s own State? [Back]

A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-State source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaser's State of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer.

[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(3) and 922(b)(3)]

quote:

Originally posted by Mark:
I called the Illinois State Police a little while ago. According to the officer I spoke with it is legal to do a face to face transfer between private parties where the buyer is from Missouri.

However, to be on the safe side I'm going to call the Missouri State Police later and talk to someone there to make certain they have no issue with it either.

If they are favorable to this I'm thinking about getting final verification from BATF just to make sure all the bases are covered, since I guess it is possible to follow state laws and still violate a federal law.

Mark:

I don't care who you talked to, they obviously don't know the federal firearms laws. Whether you want to do it or not is no skin of my butt, but I can assure you that if you sell that pistol to a resident of another state than yours without transferring it to him through a FFL in his stateYOU WILL BE IN VIOLATION OF FEDERAL FIREARMS LAWS, PERIOD.

Once again some of you jumped me about being incorrect and it may very well be I am .

I did post ; Just an opinion . Check your local state gun laws on the net .

What happens if Two states allow private firearms sales , is it still against the law State or Federal

to transfer a firearm ?. Why must the sale take place in the recipient's state of residence ?.

If all information is given and forms are filled out ( an FFL Transfer ) should be good no matter which state

it's being conducted in . " I'm not stating this is Factual " !. Just saying it should be .

I've bought enough firearms to know , I'm required to have an FFL holder in MY State take possession

for the predetermined waiting period and must pay all applicable fees DROS and such !, other than sales tax .

it would be faster just to drive it to an FFL in his state than do all this research and calling around.

Red

OK Here's the real deal.
Firearms as used in one of the above posts doesn't include handguns.
Federal law requires a HANDGUN to be purchased at the state level. Meaning the seller must ship the gun from a FFL deal in his state to a FFL dealer in the buyer's state and then the buyer receives the gun as if he walked in of the street to buy it as a regular purchase in his own state so long as the handgun in question is legal in the buyer's state.

For a list of laws by state. http://www.nraila.org/GunLaws/#

quote:

Originally posted by Doc224/375:
What happens if Two states allow private firearms sales , is it still against the law State or Federal

I believe it was the Brady bill that made private handgun transfers Illegal At the federal level.

quote:

to transfer a firearm ?. Why must the sale take place in the recipient's state of residence ?.

So that the sale will take place under the jurisdiction of the state. i.e. go through that states waiting period and background check. Because background checks are done at the state level handgun sale are also at the state level.
If a person has a conviction in one state it may not be known to another state.

quote:

If all information is given and forms are filled out ( an FFL Transfer ) should be good no matter which state. it's being conducted in . " I'm not stating this is Factual " !. Just saying it should be .

Federal law requires NICS (national instant check system) to be used on all handgun sales at the state level. The feds don't keep a record of firearm sales (or at least their not supposed to) other then NFA firearms And the feds don't keep records of state level convictions unless it's a felony conviction.

quote:

I've bought enough firearms to know , I'm required to have an FFL holder in MY State take possession

for the predetermined waiting period and must pay all applicable fees DROS and such !, other than sales tax .

Correct that's how it is
See the problem is people get it confused big time. A handgun is a handgun but a firearm is a rifle or shotgun when it come to sales and transfers.
I can drive to Arizona buy almost any rifle I want over the counter due to NICS. And I can walk out with it that day. Cash and carry. But try it with a handgun and flip out your out of state ID and they say Sorry but no sales to non residents.

There's been so much much contradictory, misleading and just flat out wrong information in this thread that you're best not to rely on any of it. And don't call the ATF and ask them. I've had agents give me wrong information as often as right. An agent giving you wrong information does keep you out of trouble if you break the law. Go straight to the source;

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b1

In ATF terms, a "firearm" means long guns & hand guns unless otherwise stated.

And then you have state laws. Mine in Missouri are pretty liberal (the classic meaning). Illinois is pretty strict. You have to research your state law to be sure. It's all available to you on-line.

Just for Mark and other's who might be reading impaired, from M. Purcell's ATF link above.....

Part of answer to B 16....

quote:

Please note that if a private person wants to obtain a firearm from a private person who resides in another State, the firearm will have to be shipped to an FFL in the buyer's State. The FFL will be responsible for record keeping. See also Question B3.

B3

quote:

A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-State source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaser's State of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
Just for Mark and other's who might be reading impaired, from M. Purcell's ATF link above.....

Part of answer to B 16....

quote:

Please note that if a private person wants to obtain a firearm from a private person who resides in another State, the firearm will have to be shipped to an FFL in the buyer's State. The FFL will be responsible for record keeping. See also Question B3.

B3

quote:

A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-State source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaser's State of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer.

Maybe I'm one of the reading impaired, but, it seems like to me that in B 16 the ATFE is speaking of shipping a firearm across state lines and not a face to face deal.

Rojelio

Rojelio, whether it is "shipped" in your car or via common carrier, it still must be recorded in the receiver's state by an FFL dealer.

OK, Duh
Rojelio

(B16) What record-keeping procedures should be followed when two private individuals want to engage in a firearms transaction? [Back]

When a transaction takes place between private (unlicensed) persons who reside in the same State, the Gun Control Act (GCA) does not require any record keeping. A private person may sell a firearm to another private individual in his or her State of residence and, similarly, a private individual may buy a firearm from another private person who resides in the same State. It is not necessary under Federal law for a Federal firearms licensee (FFL) to assist in the sale or transfer when the buyer and seller are "same-State" residents. Of course, the transferor/seller may not knowingly transfer a firearm to someone who falls within any of the categories of prohibited persons contained in the GCA. See 18 U.S. C. §§ 922(g) and (n). However, as stated above, there are no GCA-required records to be completed by either party to the transfer.

There may be State or local laws or regulations that govern this type of transaction. Contact State Police units or the office of your State Attorney General for information on any such requirements.

Please note that if a private person wants to obtain a firearm from a private person who resides in another State, the firearm will have to be shipped to an FFL in the buyer's State. The FFL will be responsible for record keeping. See also Question B3.

Gatogordo ; Posted

Part of answer to B 16....

quote:
Please note that if a private person wants to obtain a firearm from a private person who resides in another State, the firearm will have to be shipped to an FFL in the buyer's State. The FFL will be responsible for record keeping. See also Question B3.



B3

quote:
A person not licensed under the GCA and not prohibited from acquiring firearms may purchase a firearm from an out-of-State source and obtain the firearm if an arrangement is made with a licensed dealer in the purchaser's State of residence for the purchaser to obtain the firearm from the dealer.



That makes sense . Thanks .

Are there any states left in which one can go into a gun show and purchase and carry the firearm

out same day ? . Is it now a distinction between Long Gun and Pistol or does it matter ?.

Did the Brady Bill screw this up to ?.


We used to call that Cash & Carry . I'm excluding Antiques & relics because they are

exempted as per provision stated in the FFL and C&R collectibles description .


Here is a posting from another site which is incorrect !. I saw this and thought I would post it here .


I am curious if it is LEGALLY possible to establish a dual state residency for the purpose of buying a rifle.

I live in California. I would like to LEGALLY buy an AR-15 in Arizona and leave it in Arizona in storage. I could travel occassionally to shoot it.

I do not want to break any laws and was wondering if there was a way to establish a dual residency so I can purchase the rifle. I can't move from California due to my job.

Is this possible?.


For the purpose of purchasing handguns, ATF considers a person having homes in two states and residing at each for part of the year to be a resident of the state he is living in at the time.(** This is True )

You don't need to be a resident of another state to purchase a rifle in another state from an FFL in that state provided you are physically at the dealer's licensed premises for the transfer. The part that is going to get you is the rifle must be legal for you to possess at both the point of purchase and your state of residence. Since CA bans ARs, he could not legally sell you one.

On the other hand, if you happen to have a really good friend or relative living in Arizona that buys you an AR for your birthday and presents it to you while you are visiting, it would be legal for you to take possession and then arrange storage in Arizona. ( This is FALSE ** ) .


As I have a relative ( Brother ) who resides in AZ. and I've purchased several Rifles from Dealers and

gun shows in that state . The Only relative allowed to receive a firearm purchased in the above manner

is a Father or Mother !. A sibling may NOT purchase a firearm ( any firearm ) for the intention of

gifting selling or willing too their siblings !.

A few states still allow Cash and carry but you still have to go through the NICS system first.
Vermont has the least restrictive laws on guns.
You don't even need a CCW there.
Their policy is essentially the Federal laws are good enough.
But It's still comes down to this.... Hand guns must be received in your state of residence.
Long guns are different.

quote:

Are there any states left in which one can go into a gun show and purchase and carry the firearm out same day ?

Referring only to Federal law, any resident of a state who is NOT an FFL holder can sell any legal firearm (which includes pistols) to any resident of the SAME state who may legally own said firearm with no paperwork or checks required. This includes "personal collections" and personal firearms at gun shows. This is the so-called "gun show loophole" about which so much noise is made by the anti-gunners. To repeat, this is FEDERAL LAW and state laws, especially in such hell holes as California, may have other requirements. In Texas, cash and carry is very much alive and well, individual to individual.

Thanks ; KcStott and Gatogordo ;

I remember the good ole days before federal transfers for Automatics were required !.Pre 68 .

State as well as individual county or city ordinances become confusing when dealing with

firearms , as they trump any Federal law .

This seems to be a good time to plug grass roots groups. Belonging to the NRA is great for national issues. For state & local gun rights, you need to be an active member of an effective gun rights group in your home state. Every state has a Rifle & Pistol Association or other group that does this type of activity. Here in Missouri we have several that work together under a statewide umbrella group. I belong to one called the Western Missouri Shooters Alliance (WMSA, you can look us up on the web). We work to elect state & local officials friendly to our cause. We worked for over a decade to pass CCW, castle doctrine, getting rid of county permits to acquire a handgun, etc. We then have to work like hell to keep what we have, such as Missouri's preemption law that prohibits cities & counties from passing gun laws more strict than the state law.

Get involved Beware of the old-school state NRA affiliates that are more interested in competition than political activism. No problem with that except without political activism, there would be no shooting competitions.

Now I'll step down from my soapbox and get back to work.

Good post and excellent points, Mark!

In Texas it is the Texas State Rifle Association. If there are active smaller local or regional groups, I'm not familiar with them, but would like to hear about them if anyone knows of any.

Yes Mark ! All is good provided your state hasn't already been over run with Gay liberal

Hollywood PETA toting legislators , who wish to save the planet by insuring the

extinction of Homo Sapiens !. .

Best I've seen in a long while. Helps clearly explain the fear most of us have over the results of the last couple elections…….

Please view this video and understand what we as a Nation face . Political goes in the

Political forum , however this isn't party affiliated political crap !.



http://www.wimp.com/thegovernment/

Just an FYI since we are discussing gun laws

Upon moving into the state of California you have 30 days to register your handguns with the DOJ/ATF. Isn't that just lovely
Don't ask me how they would find out if you didn't. Without invading your privacy they couldn't.
But you will have to leave any HCFD (high capacity feeding device) at the door.... 10 rounds or less for rifles and handguns. No AR style rifles at all. Nothing semi auto with a detachable mag and pistol grip allowed. Don't ask for a CCW because you won't get one. Yes the County Sherif is responsible for issuing them but they only issue a handful a year. You can't even walk around in public with a loaded gun in a holster in plain view. It has to be unloaded and in plain view for it to be legal.

KcStott ; You can own all the high capacity magazines you want in CA. . A problem comes from

sellers not being legally able to ship them too you . As I'm sure your also aware of ammunition

restrictions in certain CA . County's or city limits !.

The problem is they can't be installed or attached to the gun !. Sort of a catch 22 !.

I shot over at your police dept. range last year North River Road area . Do you know it ?.

I was informed by Several of the officers as to the above stated fact . I also have a letter from

the last Attorney General Bill Locklear allowing me to transport which ever of my firearms in side of CA..

My M 14 has 20 rounders and those are legal as no 10 round mags were ever made for those .

As are the stock fixed 20 round mags on Russian SKS . Handguns NO I've never seen literature

for an exception too the 10 round crap . Browning High Power originally came 13 round and so many

different semi auto pistols use Dbl. stack now , One is forced to purchase after market magazines

in some cases . However throwing the original magazine away decreases the guns value !, So You

may also be in possession of those as well !.

Well you're correct to an extent.
Yes you can own as many Hi cap mags as you want.
And you can use them too. But Ca state law says that no importation of Hi cap mags after 1/1/2000. So technically if you don't own any and want to buy some you can not legally buy them out of state and bring them in. But who's to stop you???
The thing is All Hi cap mags owned before 1/1/2000 are grandfathered in and are unregulated. meaning there are no serial #'s on the mags to differentiate them form old ones.
So you could drive to another state pick up some mags paid for by cash and drive back. This is illegal and if you do it and get busted don't complain to me.
The whole thing is the law is stupid. Ok so I can't have a 15 round mag but a ten round mag is fine. So If I blow a gasket and decide to run a muck at the local mall it will take 1/3 longer to do that same amount of damage.????
When the mag ban came out I instantly switched from 9mm to 45 ACP. If I can only carry ten rounds at a time It's going to be a very large ten rounds
I'm just glad the gun grabbers don't know the truth. They would ban guns by caliber not looks or mag capacity

The range is right down the street from my place. I shoot there at least once a month. more when my younger brothers are here They are CHP officers.
Having a letter from the AG is a big ace in the hole. Unfortunately I don't have that luxury and need to be extra on safe side. Oceanside cops are very Gung ho and it's guilty until proven innocent around here.
Hell I bought a Taser just because If I actually had to shoot someone here I may never get my gun back.
This is depressing California sucks