Hey guys - Was wondering what causes the blueing on some of my guns to turn a deep maroon? Have a brand new shotgun and was out hunting today - In the bright sunlight I could clearly see the barrels were a sort of reddish color, while the rib was jet black? I've also noticed it on a couple of Ruger pistols... What gives?

What causes the Blueing to change colors? Is it a deficiency in the steel?

I was told many years ago that it was nickel in the steel that causes that color change over time. Rugers are notorious for doing that.

Is nickel in the steel a good thing or a bad thing?

I really don't know the reason, could be as JF says / a glitch in the "blueing" process. I have observed that colour on Winchester 94 receivers and have a Remington shotgun with damascus barrels with the same thing happening / happened. --- John303.

Bluing IS a rusting (oxidation) process. And the content of the steel alloy does influence the colour also.

Sixty+ years ago when I had a BluBlak franchise, the corporate chemists told us that Nickle steel would frequently do that in the bluing tanks. (BluBlak used a 6 tank process.)

They said that it could be prevented during the bluing and for a number of years after the actual bluing by running the hot salts tank both hotter and longer...they recommended 3-to-5 degrees fahrenheit hotter and 1/2 hour longer.

My experience is that their advice worked on most nickled steel I commonly ran into, but that on high nickel alloys, I had to run as much as 10 degrees F hotter, and for more like two full hours extra in the hot salts tank.

The chemists also told us the blue would turn maroon over a long period of time because the salts-oxidized finished surface of the metal was not inert...that is, oxidation continued to alter the colour as the metal continued to be exposed for extended periods to the oxygen in the air...and in the water in the air.

How much was oats and how much was horse-pucky, I don't know. I do know the hotter & longer immersion in the salts kept the nickle-steel guns from coming out of the bluing bath purple.

Many Colt pythons from the 1980's have plum colored cylinder latches. I read that was one of the parts they outsourced and the supplier either got the bluing solution wrong or didn't change it often enough.

FWIW I brought a Python up to Colt for some work back in August, it's a mid 1980's gun and has a plum colored latch. They offered to replace it at no charge.

When I was at TSJC, Joe Tessari advised me to run the salts a little higher than normal, and also to not leave it in the salts but about three to five minutes and then dunk in cold water then reintroduce it back to the salts four or five times. It worked and the owner of the former redish, plumb colored Parker Hale 1200 was amazed at the new finish. I assume it's still in the state it was in after I blued it 20 years ago, I can ask him as he's a good friend of mine.

P.S. All of this was done right over the old bluing, Joe told me it was a wast of time to remove the old finish.

Here in UK you will sometimes see the receiver of Greener GP guns that are very much this maroon colour.

Am told that it was due to not getting the bluing temperature right of changes in the receiver steel.

Had an early S & W Model 57 in 41 Magnum that had a matching (!) plum cylinder and barrel! Belive that it was a tool room gun before the barrels and cylinders were actually being made as 41 Magnum calibre.

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Originally posted by Recoil Rob:
Many Colt pythons from the 1980's have plum colored cylinder latches. I read that was one of the parts they outsourced and the supplier either got the bluing solution wrong or didn't change it often enough.

FWIW I brought a Python up to Colt for some work back in August, it's a mid 1980's gun and has a plum colored latch. They offered to replace it at no charge.

I have a plum colored Python also...

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Originally posted by JDA-CO:
Is nickel in the steel a good thing or a bad thing?

It's not bad.

Thanks fellas... Appreciate your wisdom!

I prefere the old term, plum color.

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When I was at TSJC, Joe Tessari advised me to run the salts a little higher than normal, and also to not leave it in the salts but about three to five minutes and then dunk in cold water then reintroduce it back to the salts four or five times

That normally worked for me. Second option if my memory is working was to leave the metal in the salts and boil water off raising the temp.

Rust blue it.

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Originally posted by ramrod340:

quote:

When I was at TSJC, Joe Tessari advised me to run the salts a little higher than normal, and also to not leave it in the salts but about three to five minutes and then dunk in cold water then reintroduce it back to the salts four or five times

Second option if my memory is working was to leave the metal in the salts and boil water off raising the temp.

That's how I always raised the temp, too. Basically my salt tank temp was always controlled NOT by increasing or decreasing the output of the gas burners, but by regulating the inflow of water to the salts tank.

Naturally water was always boiling off as the salts were kept at a "normal" temp of 285-287 F for bluing most guns, and increasing the inflow reduced the temp while reducing the inflow increased the temp.

Incidentally, I found the natural hardness or softness of the water (mineral content) required a slightly different temp too for the best bluing.

Brownell's offers a solution to add to their salts to stop the red color. I've never used it so I don't know how it works. I've had Ruger's that are red that came from the factory that way. Some say it is the silicone added to improve the flow on investment cast frames. Once again - I don't know. I do know that older Model 94 Winchesters will blue red and I resort to bluing them using the rust blue process instead of the bluing salts.

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Originally posted by Trap4570:
Brownell's offers a solution to add to their salts to stop the red color. I've never used it so I don't know how it works. I've had Ruger's that are red that came from the factory that way. Some say it is the silicone added to improve the flow on investment cast frames. Once again - I don't know. I do know that older Model 94 Winchesters will blue red and I resort to bluing them using the rust blue process instead of the bluing salts.

That works. Unfortunately some folks won't (or don't feel they can afford to) pay for the time and efort rust bluing takes. So, as turning the heat up keeps the guns from coming out redish toned, sometimes one may want to resort to that.

I've always understood that Chrome Molybdenum steel (or steel with a higher CM content) tended to blue a plum colour, the high strength Danish Schultz and Larsen rifle actions always had a slight reddish sheen to their bluing while the barrels were a normal blue. When I had my Schultz reblued the action came out even stronger in plumish hue colour and the very experienced Gunsmith commented then that this was due to the high CM steel which I already knew about and expected with the reblue job.

I think that both the makeup of the steal, and the hardness has an affect on it wanting to turn colors. I've noticed it a lot on after market smooth bolt shrouds turning colors and the rest of that particular barreled action did not. I think it's a combination of the makeup of the steal, and the heat treatment/how hard it is.

And it could have something to do with the bluing salts he was using. I can tell you this for absolute certain. With the BluBlak brand salts I used and, where needed, more heat, I NEVER found a gun I couldn't get to come out a nice plain black colour.

As to it being chrome-moly steel that comes out that way, almost all modern rifle barrels that aren't stainless steel are chrome-moly steel so it must take a heck of a lot more chrome-moly content than usual. I'd suspect some other alloying metals to be the culprits.

Years ago when I was blueing I used the oldc trick of shocking the part by taking it out of the salts & dunking into ice water & back into the salts. Worked great of Win 94 receivers & some M1 carbine trigger guards.

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Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
As to it being chrome-moly steel that comes out that way, almost all modern rifle barrels that aren't stainless steel are chrome-moly steel so it must take a heck of a lot more chrome-moly content than usual. I'd suspect some other alloying metals to be the culprits.

Maybe so but I did qualify my post with "steel with higher CM content" which I understand S&L actions did have. They were tested to over 120,000psi with no lack of integrity, a tribute no doubt to the design and the steel used. I just know from owning a couple that from the factory they had a very slight plum colour hue to the action whereas the barrel was a normal blue hue.

Albert you may be correct about other alloying metals but I was only repeating what I had heard and read somewhere about the higher than normal CM content in the S&H rifles (early ones anyway).

I have owned over a dozen Shultz & Larsens, including 4 of their "free rifles". Still have two...one free rifle and one M65 DL. Am not sure, but I believe their steel has some Berylium in it...I know they have something unusual in their alloy anyway, and they pretty much all come with a bit of a "cast" to their colour, which increases over time. As it never bothered me, and as mine have all been in pristine condition, I have never tried to re-blue one. But I am certain it is not because they are chrome-moly steel. I could look up what the steel is, but am not going to bother.

Wouldn't matter if I did. Everyone here would continue to believe whatever they already believe anyway.

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Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
I have owned over a dozen Shultz & Larsens, including 4 of their "free rifles". Still have two...one free rifle and one M65 DL. Am not sure, but I believe their steel has some Berylium in it...I know they have something unusual in their alloy anyway, and they pretty much all come with a bit of a "cast" to their colour, which increases over time. As it never bothered me, and as mine have all been in pristine condition, I have never tried to re-blue one. But I am certain it is not because they are chrome-moly steel. I could look up what the steel is, but am not going to bother.

Wouldn't matter if I did. Everyone here would continue to believe whatever they already believe anyway.

Well!!!I guess we are all only repeating what we have read or been told as no-one here actually knows what steel alloy Schultz and Larsen used.

Never mind, but I was interested in your comment Alberta that the cast to their colour increases over time. I had not mentioned this in my posts but I too thought this so. I had a M65 in 7x61 S&H (2nd H) and my father a M60 in same calibre (from new) which I took over when he got older. Most of the bluing had worn from the barrel and magazine floor plate and the action had taken a noticeable hue to it by the time I got it reblued.

Mind you that M60 had spent countless hours in the field and accounted for many hundreds of animals and could still put bullets almost down the same hole on target. On reassembling the rifle after a complete strip down for rebluing, and a stock refurbishment, and putting the 6x Karles scope back into the original style Weaver rings and on the rifle, bore sight looked good and then the first shot down range at 50m went dead centre into the bull.

Was a crime to have swapped this rifle for a new Remington SPS 7mm-08, that's what family does to the mind!!!!!!

Actually, I should have said "IIRC the S&Ls used beryllium steel in the receivers". I do have the info here, but have not committed it to memory because I almost never need it. Also, one of the owners of the modern incarnation of the S&L firm was posting here at AR for a while. If he is still around, I'm sure he has access to the info. Maybe he will chime in, maybe not.

But as commenting on what the chemists from one of the major bluing salts companies said does not seem to have met with acceptance, nor does personal experience as a commercial bluer of guns, I'm pretty much done with the subject.

Adios for now....