All,

I realize that this may be a simple question which may expose my ignorance on the matter, however, I will go ahead and pose it anyway.

So, does an original 1909 Argentine TG need to have the mag box lengthened to properly work with a 30-06 based round?

If so, is this routinely performed, and how much might one expect to pay for good work?

TIA

Yes and no, it will work depending on how you seat the bullets. But the the ideal mag box length for and -06 is 3.400. The max col of an -06 is 3.340" where the 1909 mag box is 3.315".
-Don

The 1909 magazine box is a little bit shy of satisfaction with the 30-06, or similar cartridges. Yes, it can be modified, but I wouldn't do it. Instead, I would just get a bottom metal unit that was the proper length, such as the FN, or Mark X, and there are others. The 1909 bottom metal units I have I intend to use them for cartridges such as 257 roberts, 6mm Remington, 220 swift, 6.5x55, 7x57, 8x57, 9.3x57.

The 1909 bottom metal is worth somethng. The current prices for a unit which is not pitted is $100 plus. Also, there is nothing wrong with any of the cartridges mentioned above. However, IMO if you want to use the 30-06 you would be better off finding another magazine, and removing just a little metal from the base of the feed ramp of the action to match up with the lip of the magazine box.

KB

The 09 Argentine floormetal is a great base for 06 length cartridges. You should add (silver solder or tig weld) a piece of metal on the front of the mag box. Then machine out the original front and down towards the floorplate within about .050". This little .050" lip will insure there's no visible gap in front of the floorplate looking into the mag box from the bottom. The 09 requires quite a bit of work to make a really nice custom floormetal but IMHO it's a great place to start. I may be a little biased here because it's how I make a living. I couldn't put a price on this one step of customizing the 09 floormetal. It would be too much running around for a small job and it would be hard to recoup the $$ for the time spent.

If you're just looking for something that goes bang and coughs lead in the air there's much easier ways to do it.

Here's a pic of one I just lengthened for a 9.3X64.

Gorgeous work Gunmaker!!!

By the way, if one looks closely at a Marx X Bottom Metal for a Magnum action, one can see that they way they do it is to actually mill out the front portion of the box down to the bottom plate and then spot tack on a rounded piece of sheet metal to extend the box. So there is a very small portion of the bottom of the box that is not the same length (is shorter) than the top of the box that abuts the action. Apparently there is enough space to get three down without that last little bit on the bottom. Otherwise, one would have to mill out that space and change out the floorplate as well.

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:
The 09 requires quite a bit of work to make a really nice custom floormetal. I may be a little biased here because it's how I make a living. I couldn't put a price on this one step of customizing the 09 floormetal. It would be too much running around for a small job and it would be hard to recoup the $$ for the time spent.

Exactly my point. A guy would be better off ordering a Sunny Hill unit from Brownells at $500 than pay for all the custom work needed to convert the 09 unit, counting the shaping of the trigger guard, and a Wisner straddle floor plate fitted too.

Then attach that Sunny Hill unit to a nice FN commercial receiver, then you've got something that will really cough lead in the air and look good too, and doesn't need heat treatment.

Nice work gunmaker.

KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
A guy would be better off ordering a Sunny Hill unit from Brownells at $500 than pay for all the custom work needed to convert the 09 unit, counting the shaping of the trigger guard, and a Wisner straddle floor plate fitted too.

KB

What guy would be better off?
Not me. I make money working on things.

Your post that I quoted might make more sense to me if you started it with "IMHO" This would clarify it as your opinion, and not some fact.

I know that FN commercial actions make fine rifles. I'm not disputing that. I don't think IMHO that a well done FN with SHill floormetal is in the same league as a well done 09 Arg. Of course this is just my opinion. It's also the same opinion my clients have.

Yes, of course this is "IMHO".

Some things are facts, and sometimes in my haste I forget to distinguish between an opinion and a fact. Sometimes it takes a while to sort out the facts too. Mostly in many aspects of life, we have to operate on "IMHO", because the facts we know for certain don't add up to the sum of all we see or know.

Most often we assemble a set of facts, then fill in the blank spaces with subjectivity or objectivity, whichever we are so inclined at the moment.



Regards,
KB

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:
Yes, of course this is "IMHO".

Some things are facts, and sometimes in my haste I forget to distinguish between an opinion and a fact. Sometimes it takes a while to sort out the facts too. Mostly in many aspects of life, we have to operate on "IMHO", because the facts we know for certain don't add up to the sum of all we see or know.

Most often we assemble a set of facts, then fill in the blank spaces with subjectivity or objectivity, whichever we are so inclined at the moment.



Regards,
KB

Kabluewy

Remind me never to call you as an expert witness on what a fact is.

Dear Mr. Anderson:

May I pick your brain a bit.

What did you do to the feed rails and ramp to get the 9.3x64 to feed properly in your pictured 1909 Argentine action? I have two 1909's presently, and they look like they will take more work to get them to feed with longer and larger diameter cartridges than my 1908 Brazilian's.

Unfortunately, one of my 1909's had the front of the magazine milled to accept a 30-06 re-chamber in the original 7.65 barrel, and yes, you can see up through in front of the floor plate. I'll have to weld in a piece of steel in the inside front of the magazine to restore it.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

I'm with Jim on the 1909's and that's exactly how I extend mine. I posted this before but to give you an idea here it is again.
-Don

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:

Kabluewy

Remind me never to call you as an expert witness on what a fact is.

OK - no problem.

I know how to baffel them with BS, or confuse them with the fact. That's easy. The real delema is to know when to use BS, or when to use facts, or perhaps a combination, and let them sort it out, and not confuse yourself in the process, and believe your own BS.

The last week in this month, I think I'm going to get a real lesson in this expert witness thing, during my divorce/annulment trial. Another one of those hopefully once-in-a-liftime experiences I would rather just skip.

Discussing differences of opinion on gun stuff is much more fun.

KB

Chris
The action feed pretty well once I shortened the feed ramp to match the modified mag box. I did however widen the rails where the shoulder hits to try and keep the rounds in the magazine from spewing them out. Most of the 09's I've worked on have feed rails without any step. I put in a mild step with a dremel starting at the shoulder and feathering it out to the rear of the rails. Then polished it out with moldmaker stones up to 400.

Don M
Good pics! I see you left the gusset on the hinge mortise. Recently I started machining this down flush with the front of the tang. Makes it easier for clean up and leaves more wood in the stock behind the recoil lug and faster to inlet. It's also faster than slotting it. I also have a 2 degree taper tool that I mill most of the draft off the mag extension with. Takes a few minutes and saves time trying to blend it with a file.

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:
Chris

Don M
Good pics! I see you left the gusset on the hinge mortise. Recently I started machining this down flush with the front of the tang. Makes it easier for clean up and leaves more wood in the stock behind the recoil lug and faster to inlet. It's also faster than slotting it. I also have a 2 degree taper tool that I mill most of the draft off the mag extension with. Takes a few minutes and saves time trying to blend it with a file.

James,
I was wondering about removing the gussets, I've converted tons of standard guards to hinged and they obviously don't have them. I haven't had a problem with strength in those, but I guess I just figured they were there for a reason. I have to get one of those draft bits, sounds like it'll save alot of time.
-Don

Dear Mr. Anderson:

You did what I was conceiving. The 1909 has a straight taper under the feed rails, causing the case shoulders to cross over when I used dummy 7x57 Ackley rounds. In some cases, the top round with a full magazine of four cartridges would not be picked up by the bolt, where the bolt face slid over the round like a 284 Winchester. The back of the cartridge was kicked out too far, because of the shoulder restriction.

Thank you for your fix. Basically, you are re-machining the 1909 receiver under the rails to reflect the 1908 machining. Excellent idea. Coincidentally, I had to further machine (with a Dremel, too) under the 1908 rails in the shoulder area, then taper them back and remove the little nub near the back of the magazine port for my 416 Ruger project. That kept the cartridges from standing up. I'm still not happy with the early break over. I have to cut the sides out, and widen the magazine.

On the other hand my 1909's feed dummy 8x57's like there is no tomorrow. I hate to change that German precision. Maybe a 6.5x57 and an 8x57 is the way to go.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:
The 09 Argentine floormetal is a great base for 06 length cartridges. You should add (silver solder or tig weld) a piece of metal on the front of the mag box. Then machine out the original front and down towards the floorplate within about .050". This little .050" lip will insure there's no visible gap in front of the floorplate looking into the mag box from the bottom. The 09 requires quite a bit of work to make a really nice custom floormetal but IMHO it's a great place to start. I may be a little biased here because it's how I make a living. I couldn't put a price on this one step of customizing the 09 floormetal. It would be too much running around for a small job and it would be hard to recoup the $$ for the time spent.

If you're just looking for something that goes bang and coughs lead in the air there's much easier ways to do it.

Here's a pic of one I just lengthened for a 9.3X64.

That is beautiful work!