The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Gunsmithing Weld or Braze?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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| one of us |
You have to weld it. | |||
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| <Jeff S> |
Bolt handles are brazed on. I just sent one off to have it done! My third time I've changed a bolt handle and they always braze them. | ||
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| one of us |
Bolt handles should be tig welded on..Never brazed...If someone is brazing them on they are not gunsmiths and have no business in the business.... ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
Ray, Thanks. I thought I was clear - but I'm no expert. Now it's official. | |||
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| <DuaneinND> |
Sometimes handles are "silver-brazed" or 80000psi silver solder as some prefer to call it. Remington 700 handles are an example. Your mauser handle should be welded on by someone who knows what he is doing, you can use an oxy/acet torch, a stick welder with the correct rod, or as Ray suggested a TIG welder. The advantage to TIG is you can concentrate the heat in a smaller area, and therefore have less chance of warping or overheating the surronding area. | ||
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| one of us |
It is best to weld. TIG would have the best chance of not affecting the heat treat although careful work with a wire feed welder will do as well. For years I welded on handles with oxy-acetylene and enjoyed sucess but I have switched to a wire feed using solid wire and like it. It is possible to do a nice job with silver solder but it's a process that require a bit of heat. Rehardening the cocking cam is a part of every job though with the 96 which cocks on closing its not such a big deal. Brazing could be functional enough but ugly! Regards, Bill. | |||
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| <gunboat> |
Thanks to all for the input. I think I'll get it TIG welded. | ||
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one of us |
Ray is absolutely correct. Bolt handles must be welded on. TIG is much preferred although other methods work just fine. Heat control paste will solve the potential annealing problem. | |||
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| <Scot_A> |
Yes weld, heat control paste for sure and inert gas envelope if possible. I have no gunsmith in my area who can do this kind of work. I did find a welder who specialized in work for the high tech and computer industry. He does amazing work and usually for next to nothing. I bring him the parts already in a jig. I also provide the 3% nickel rods. He usually uses TIG and a gas envelope. No scale or discoloration to speak of. Try to find someone like this, if you can't find a good gunsmith/welder. Do not let some guy from an auto shop attack it. He may do fine but he may ruin it. The thing with bolt handles is to avoid heating the locking lugs (that can kill you), and keep the cocking cams hard. | ||
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| <Jeff S> |
Most bolt handles are made as integral assemblies with the bolt bodies. If you are talking about attaching a handle extension then by all means weld it. However, Remington has been Brazing entire bolt handles onto their model 700's for as long as they have been making them. My last match rifle had a new bolt handle installed when I built it, was on its third barrel, (over 10,000 rounds) and had a brazed bolt handle. My current match rifle (a rem 700) also sports a brazed bolt handle. | ||
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| <Scot_A> |
I am sure the Remington brazed assembly is well engineered. Funny thing happened to a hunting partner though. We were out deer hunting and a coyote showed himself. My friend pulled the rifle from it's scabbared and quickly chambered a round only to knock the bolt handle clean off his M-700. Talk about a befuddled look. | ||
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one of us |
Likewise, I was trying to fast cycle a Kimber 223 for a quick double on coyotes and the bolt handle popped right off. The metal to metal connection appeared to be very porous and connected in just minute areas. It is now welded on. I used to think it was just a poor brazing job but, given the similar post above, maybe coyotes have even greater powers than we previously realized. | |||
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| <Gary Rihn> |
quote: Here we go again.... | ||
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| <Scot_A> |
??????? | ||
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| <Gary Rihn> |
Scot- It wasn't directed at you. I'm just tired of the "my M700 bolt fell off" stories. Seems everyone "knows" someone it happened to, but very little of the first-hand type stuff. Nothing personal at you, it just happened to be your post. If not you, someone else would've said it anyway... | ||
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| one of us |
Gary, In 23 years of gunsmithing I have re-installed the handles on probably a 1/2dozen M700s. This is first hand info. When you consider the number of 700s that went through the shop this maybe isn't a lot. Over the same period about the same number of 788s. Two "new model" M70s. 1 Wichita 1375. So the handles don't constantly fall off M700s but they do come off as they do with any of the silver soldered handles. All the rifles which suffered a handle separation showed eveidence of a faulty silver solder joint. If well done they WON'T come off. It's safe to say that I've never seen a handle come off a Mauser or Springfield or pre-64 M70! Regards, Bill. | |||
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| <Eric> |
While I prefer to work on pistols, I do work on the occassional rifle. I've had three Remington 788's in my shop and all three needed the bolt handle rewelded. The third was a virtually new rifle that had the bolt handle come off in my hand as I was chambering a round to fire it for function. While silver solder and brazing CAN BE DONE CORRECTLY, it is better to TIG the thing and be done with it. That's my two cents. ------------------ | ||
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| <Paladin> |
Years and years ago, when surplus Springfields and Mausers were being customized everywhere, a common problem was improperly welded bolt handles. I personally saw several break off as others were trying to open their prized sporters. In every case, the problem clearly was an improperly set up and poorly done weld. Most of these were shallow, superficial welds, one I vividly remember was badly burnt and crusty. I've seen and do own well-welded bolts done recently by the TIG process, but frankly, I would rather have a forged bolt any day, as long as the workmanship is competent. Paladin | ||
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| <migra> |
First of all the best way is to heat the existing bolt handle and bend it in a set of bolt bending blocks. Then the handle is still an integral part of the original forging. Second of all Remington 700 bolt handles are not "brazed" on, they are silver soldered. | ||
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| one of us |
I have been fixing Remington bolts for years, they are silver soldered and if a hot load locks things up and you hit it with a hammer ot open the bolt it will come off..and on many ocasions they just break off.. Migra, a bent bolt handle only applies to a Mauser and thats a second rate fix, better to cut it off an tig on a longer bolt as the mauser bent bolts are too short and you still have to put the heat to them to bend them...Tig will not break when properly done. ------------------ | |||
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| <migra> |
Ray, I really don't think bending mauser bolts is a second rate fix. As I stated earlier you maintain the integrity of the original forging. Yes you have to heat it, but with heat control paste and a heat sink, nothing critical gets too hot. As for mauser bolts being too short, none of the jobs I've done turned out that way, maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are trying to say. I agree a properly TIG welded bolt is not ever coming off, but neither is a recontoured original. Migra | ||
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| <Lee S. Forsberg> |
TIG weld for sure! Make sure to use a mandrel to protect internal threads and as a heat sink. ------------------ | ||
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| one of us |
Migra, I just disagree and thats what makes a horse race....I dispise bent military bolts and in my mind they are a second rate fix.. ------------------ | |||
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| <gunboat> |
Its really a moot point for me since I already cut off the original bolt handle, but can you forge the original bolt handle with a sharp enough bend to clear a low mounted scope? The replacement handle I'm getting welded on basically comes off the bolt body nearly tangent instead of perpendicular like the original. That would be a mighty sharp bend to try and forge. | ||
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| <migra> |
Ray, I'll make you a deal! The first time one of my customers brings back a broken bolt that I have re contoured, I'll throw my bolt bending blocks in the trash and buy a TIG. | ||
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one of us |
NOW, NOW, Folks, lets not get our hackels up! I have never re-done a bolt on anything other than Mauser 98s, but I weld them with a OXI/ACL torch with a No 2 tip, and a 3% nichol rod, and heat paste! I have never had one come off, and the hardness of the bolt stub, or bolt body is not effected at all, if done carefully. Ray is right about the bolt becomeing too short when forged,for my taste, but is as strong as a properly welded one. The key is to spot weld a shallow bead on the under side of the bolt handle, the grind away a great deal of steel from the top in a "V" ditch, and fill slowly to just larger than the shape you want at the intersection of the handle, and stub, then grind, and file, carefully to the final shape. It is all in what you want to have when finished, but, IMO,TIG is best, and the only second rate job is to "REMINGTON" it on! Silver solder is for jewelry, and gold inlays, not for working parts of guns! ------------------ | |||
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| <Ben H> |
Gents: I find this thread very interesting. Would someone be kind enough to explain what a "gas envelope" and "heat sink" are. Thanks in advance, | ||
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Moderator |
Ben, Careful, or before you know it you'll be buying a torch and making holes in all sorts of stuff! If you are interested try taking an intro to welding course at a local community college, or if you have a child in high school maybe ask an Industrial Arts teacher to show you how to make a weld. Anyway, a "gas envelope" is just that, a bubble of inert gas such as nitrogen, argon, or CO2 that envelopes the piece being welded. A simple way of doing this is to put the piece to be welded in an open box, run a tube from a gas bottle into the box too, and crack the valve on the bottle, then make your weld. A heat sink is something used to keep a critical part from getting too hot. Rather than try to describe how they work on a rifle bolt, I'll describe something used for electronics- suppose you need to solder a wire of a transistor, but can't get the transistor itself too hot, so the simple thing to do is just put a little metal clip on the wire between the joint and the component, then the excess heat gets soaked up into the clip rather than moving along the wire into the component. When you are welding wet rags also work well depending on the application, and there are many types of paste which do the same thing. Hope this helps! Mark | |||
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| one of us |
Migra, don't get excited, I certainly have no problems with you bending the bolts on your Mausers, I just won't do it to mine, and was suggesting an alternative to you, while answering the original post that was referring to braze or weld, not bending, what you do is certainly your business... ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
One thing I have done (and still do) on Mausers is to cut 2/3 of the way through the root of the handle and then heat it and bend it straight down. The resulting "V" is then filled in with weld and dressed down and shaped. After this the handle is bent back up to an appropriate angle and there you have it. Th resulting handle is not too short like the forged ones frequently are and the integrity is good. For those Mausers which don't have a nice ly shaped knob I weld on handles that I turn off on the CNC by the dozen which have the semi pear shaped knob as found on the Oberndorf 98s. Regards, Bill. | |||
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