Real nice threesome you got there.

I also can't figure out why all the talk about wood not lasting and only stainless steel being seviceable for the long haul. According to there retoric my 200 year old flintlock should have turned to dust long ago.

One thing is for sure ... the squirrels and rabbits sure don't like to hear it speak

Can't get Hunt101 to come up or I'd post a picture.

I have synthetics on my target rifles and a couple of my hunting rigs. I even have a few laminates and love them. But I still prefer the warmth and character that wood provides. A stainless rifle with a synthetic stock is as bland and generic as it gets. You cant get that deep rich blue on a stainless rig as you do with a proper bluing job. I still think a pretty piece of American black walnut with feather crotch is impossible to equal for beauty.

SWEET! Very classy trio, but having met Forrest I would expect nothing less.

Just like to argue, don't you Chic?

"...who has hunted with his own guns over a long period of time."

Since you weren't even building custom guns in 1984, I guess you weren't hunting with them.

I saw Jerry Fisher's M-70 7mm mag again this summer. It has a slight monte carlo and the checkering nearly worn off which dates it before my time. I can't think of any other gunmaker I know who has hunted the same rifle for more than a decade, can you?

You sure push a lot of know-how for someone whose been in the trade for a relatively short time.

As I remember, Ottmar didn't even Like to hunt.



[url="http://www.hunt101.com/?p=125034&c=557&z=1"][/url]

Gorgeous trio! More pictures are always required on this forum, you know that!

I don't know that many gunsmiths personally, and have found that some don't even hunt. The couple at the local shop (not on your guys level Chic and SDH) do hunt with their own guns, but from talking to them the gun is never the same for very long, in pieces one year, this different the next. They do have pretty extensive collections, but don't hunt very much so maybe that is why not too much field time with them.

I can see where as a gunmaker you would finish a project for yourself and somebody would come along and love it so much they offer you enough that you can't resist selling it, so don't get to do anything in the field with it. I know I bought a knife from a custom maker that he had just finished for himself, sweet talked him into trading it for green paper.

But this has made me curious, I am going to start asking the smiths I do know if they hunt with their own creations and for how long they have used the same gun.

Red
PS
Chic and SDH, what about posting some pictures of guns that we could dream about hunting with?

SDH,

I don't mind arguing and I won't shy away from it because you type something. To begin with you have no idea how long I have been doing this and you being in it on a longer on a a professional basis does not make anything you say sacred, nor your "know how" any better.



Let me see stockmakers and gunsmith's who use their own rifles and have over a long period of time, Gary Goudy, Kent Bowerly, Lee Helgelund, Jim White, D'Arcy Echols, Jim Dubell, Mark Stratton, Al Lind, Al and Roger Biesen, Corey Heubner, David Miller, Ray Price, Dennis Olson, Steve Nelson, Paul and Sharon Dressel, Jim Kobe, and the list can go on, including me (Rubger #1 in .338 - 1990, Mauser 98, .280 Remington built in 1992, that makes it 12 years just for that one rifle- I have others). Like I said most that I know do use their own guns and they hang onto them.

I can't get Sony Imagestation to download a higher resolution photo, but try a cut and paste of this address:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid131/pd5cc8216687271beebba48e53ce0d35c/f7a471d2.jpg.orig.jpg

All three of these rifles were built by Duane on pre-War Model 70 actions. They are each a little different but, in terms of fit and function, they are identical. I don't even think about which one is in my hands at any given time.

Jorge, these guns were are all finished with Sea-Fin - a type of teak oil. Once or twice a year, I clean the stocks with diluted white vinegar and then rub a few coats of Sea-fin on the stocks, letting it dry between applications. The light scratches disappear and the finish gets nicer and nicer.

I'll try to get some close-up pictures this weekend and post them here. I'll warn everyone ahead of time though, all three rifles have those butt-ugly oval cheekpieces.

SDH/Chic, the gunbuilders I've spent time with do seem to fall into one of two camps. Either they have a favorite rifle or two they are devoted to, or they build and use a rifle until they tire of it or are compelled to sell it. I know for certain though Duane is firmly in both camps. He has a 270 (G.33/40) and a 338 (Chilean Mauser) that he has hunted with for 20 or 25 years. At the same time, he's started for himself at least four LC Smith 16s or 20s and has always sold them before he had them finished. He's done a few rifles that way as well. I think it's the curse of the gunsmith, they're either too busy to hunt or so broke they have to sell their guns.

SDH, I'll send you a PM with some details but I don't think I want an article. There must be more interesting stories to be told.

I don�t see anyone arguing. I see SDH once again shamelessly promoting himself and getting called on it.

Chic, see how little I pay attention? I met 4 of those guys and talked to Lee and Mark a lot (especially Mark, I must have stood in front of his table for over an hour) and never even though of asking about hunting with their guns.

Local guy hunts with a 35 whelen he built about 10 or more years ago, but has a real narrow butt on the stock, I think he purposely doesn't shoot anything because he is tired of the punshment. :-)

If you are in business as a gunmaker, and hunt with your own rifle, can that hunt be written off as advertising? :-) something to think about.

Howard, I thought you were always in the market for a less grouchy stockmaker?

Red

Chic, you are right, I'm wrong, but I know many more guys in the catagory Forrest describes, mostly fulltime guys with no pension who simple can't afford to own their own work.
Forrest, you are the welcome voice of sanity and you own some wonderful rifles. As for a story, how many do you see with some POS plastic stocked rifle? How many do you see with fine custom work? I've been a great fan of Wiebe's work for decades.
Howard, I've been accused of that for decades. I have been refusing commissions for 18 months, am very selective about the work I accept and have been refering potential clients to numerous professional gunmakers.
I just happen to have a whole passel of quality photography, that I came by the old fashion way, and am frequently asked to provide it. Did you see the cover photo for The Accurate Rifle (August '04) that's out now? How about the single shot story in the July Sporting Classics? There should be a story out in the latest RifleShooter, but I haven't seen it, have you?
I also shamelessly promote the custom gun trade in August TAR with a story titled, An Introduction To Custom Rifles and every other chance I get. You might enjoy it if you knocked the chip off your shoulder.

SDH, what is TAR?

Red

GrandView, you'd think I would have caught that, but come on, it was late when I posted that. I don't know if my local mag. store even carries that one, I haven't seen it before that I can remember, and I look hard. I have to drive 20 minutes to get gun mags as for some reason the local grocery stores only carry a couple, and not the good ones.

Red

Red:



As for "Precision Shooting" and "The Accurate Rifle," don't bother. Granted, the covers always get me excited (great photography), but that's where it ends.



For the life of me, I cannot fathom how a publication that looks so nice on the outside can have such awful content and writing on the inside. Let's see: tendency toward tangential subject matter, spelling errors, grammatical mis-steps, on and on; stuff that even a cursory proofreading would detect.



I've often contemplated offering my services to them as an editor. I don't know if I'd have the time, though. Trust me, it would be a full-time job.



Verdict on both: Piss poor, especially in light of the potential that is there.



RSY

So can you guys tell me what product "stock finish" is? thanks, jorge

SDH, you're a good guy and a truly great gunmaker, and I like you, but I think the "piece of shit plastic stock" comment is about as inappropriate as the "termite food" comment.

There's a place for each....

I've hunted with "POS 'plastic' stocks" in some twenty states and seven foreign countries for the last seventeen years. I've used them to take some of my all-time best trophies, and I've used them to save my backside on at least three different occasions. I haven't used them for the sake of stylin' and profilin' (they flunk out in that regard!), but because they work, they're strong, they maintain their zero, and I don't have to worry about them in any weather. If I beat 'em up on a sheep hunt or on an elk hunt it's no big deal. I will call upon them again in Africa this season, as well as next season, which will including hunting for four members of the Big Five, plus hippo. If they didn't work -- and work better than well -- I wouldn't use them. There is too much at stake in terms of time, money, and physical risk not to take what works. A very good friend of mine was killed in Africa nearly two weeks ago by a buffalo, which only underscores the point.

Not that fine wood doesn't work. Obviously, it still does, and it always will. In fact, it'll likely work even better in the present and in the future because bedding techniques and finishes will only get better. Will I hunt with finely-stocked custom rifles again? Absolutely! I have three in the pipeline right now.

My point being, "plastic" stocks have gotten a very unfair and bad rap, when in fact they offer some very solid advantages, and I say this not as a gunmaker, but as a hunter and as a client who pays to get 'em built........

AD

Thanks Grandview, that's what i thought it meant. I always use Lin-speed, but down here in the danged Florida humidity, it takes FOREVER to dry. As to the synthetic stock vs traditional wood embroglio, I've always prefered wood, but I'm not so narrow-minded not torecognize the advantages of synthetics. I have two rifles equipped accordingly, I used one to take my best black bear ever, my 340 Accumark awaits a long-in-the future brown bear hunt. jorge

Beats the dickens out of the polymer and plastic ray-guns so popular nowadays.

A well built rifle with a fiberglass handle will get my attention, and hold it, far quicker than a poorly built rifle with a wood one.

When comparing factory wood vs. plastic I have a hard time looking at eigther.

Chuck

Howard, you nailed it! My daddy told me once, "never trust a man with two last names 'cause he can't keep his stories straight". I have been hunting and killing game with the same rifle, the first one I built by the way, for over 32 years and plan on using it again this fall. It has NEVER neede to be refinished but it coes have some dings.

Allen, I apologize and understand, BUT, have you Never had a problem with breakage, warping or anything else? You agree that Very few were designed by stockmakers. Most that I have seen were a poor second to a current Winchester featherwieght in terms of stlye and handling qualities.



By the way, I had a long chat with my good friend James Tucker last night. He said your rifle was nearing completion and we talked about the Milliron styling and some of the specifics you requested.

I my opinion, Tucker is one of the consumate living gun craftsmen. His commitment to perfection is only equaled by a very few gunmakers in the world.

I photographed a G33-40 of his last year (cover of TAR August '03) a 6.5x55. The rifle was simply stunning in its simplicity. Double-set trigger, lever release floorplate and cocking piece peep sight gave it a European flavor but all was so well blended with his notion of American classic as to make a truly unique example of current American riflemaking.

Tucker has years of experience having started at Lassen just after high school, working with Dietrich Apel and Alfred Gallefent at Paul Jaeger and later as head stocker for Rigby. His experience also comes with variety and challenges. He's done several High Walls, boxlock and sidelock rifles and shotguns as well as delicate restoration projects of both high grade European and American guns. 95% of the guns stocked in his shop are done entirely from the blank.

James and I have been buddies for longer than I can remember and I always look forward to seeing him and his most recent work. There are a few others who can finish a stock as well as he can, but none better, in my opinion.

You really have something to be excited about and I hope to see the rifle at the Guild show next year (or maybe in my photo studio?)

(Shameless plug for James Tucker).

Congradulations!

Little know fact about SDH, Tucker and plastic stocks:

Several years ago I got a call from the R&D Dpt. at Marlin firearms who wanted me to design and build a prototype for the companies new bolt action style, inline muzzleloader which I agreed to do. I was hoping to get more design work for Marlin's retro lever guns but that never happened. I designed and did a fullscale drawing of the stock and subcontracted Tucker to build the prototype. The whole project fizzled and was discontinued, but for a short while there was an exceedingly nice plastic stocked bolt style muzzleloader on the market. Check out your old Marlin catalogs and tell me that wasn't a nicely designed stock?



Two more items: Anyone that would like a sample copy of either The Accurate Rifle or Precision Shooting simple has to call 860-645-8776 and they will sen you one so you can make up your own mind. I liken TAR to the old Rifle as a techincal magazine.

I'd post a photo of that Tucker rifle but Hunt 101 doesn't seem to be working, any suggestions? Would anyone like to see the G33-40?

I'm well aware of the issues involved and that reply was in response to a particular individual.

Quote:

---

In reference to your quote I would take a well made wood stocked rifle anyday over a poorly made rifle with a synthetic stock.

---

I agree %100.

Chuck

Given a choice between stainless/plastic, I'll take rust/termite fodder any day.

SDH, I use photobucket.com as a hosting site for photos. It beats hunt101 bloody.

Chuck

SDH, I'll travel to see you about any or all of these these three points:



Will you kindly photograph custom rifles with synthetic stocks as well as wood? I love your photography, I'll pay you for your work on the spot....



You may, by all means, photograph anything that James C. Tucker, Mark Penrod, or D'Arcy Echols is building for me -- or ever will build for me -- and you may include photos of same in any of your articles or books. I seek no recompense for same, nor will I ever.......



Are you willing to restock a Model 21 Winchester?



To answer your question, yes, I've had fiberglass stocks move, change POI, and othewise act ugly. I had a Remington 700 KS .300 Win. Mag. that would move in the sun; this in ninety-degree Eastern Oregon mule deer weather. You could see this junky stock move in the sun, and I doubt that good wood would have ever acted that way. The early Brown Precision stocks that Remington used on those early KS rifles were not the equal -- by any means -- of McMillan's product. I have never, EVER had a McMillan stock move..............



Best,



AD

Allen, I'd feel priviledged to photograph any of your rifles, I hear you have some dandy older stuff as well. I do charge, and it's not cheap, but the quality speaks for itself. I'm sure you can find my phone number to talk about it. I don't guarentee placement, but many of the photos do show up in stories, and the next book is an eventuality. I'm always looking for a good story!

I'm flattered you asked Thanks! but, I'm not currently accepting any restock jobs, only complete custom projects, and not even them at this moment. I've got several projects booked and several guys waiting. As for shotguns, I've a half dozen pre-war Belgian brld actions (H&H type, sxs, sidelock, 12 ga.) that will be my focus for the next few years. They are magnificent as a base for truly shotguns. I did a story a few months back in Shooting Sportsman about one I'm chiseling arcaded fences on. Hope to show it in Reno, in-the-white.
Thanks also for your candid honesty about plastic stocks. Part of the reason I throw that POS attitude out there is that I KNOW they can be problems, but all you ever hear is how perfectly impervious they are. The other big beef I have is the "one size fits all" notion besides the fact that nothing mass produced can really be custom. But I'll quit harping on that subject.

I'm relatively new to much of the digital world but have recently purchased a professional quality scanner and just finished scanning the Tucker TAR cover and some color shots of the Tucker/Heilmann M-52 in my Custom Rifles book. (I've got files full of unscanned photos.)
The problem is, I can't get either Hunt 101 or Photobucket to upload them. On photobucket I get an endless cycle of login. Hunt 101 no longer shows any upload choice???????

Any help with uploading so I can post photos would be greatly appreciated. I'll do a post here of the Tucker photos if I can get them online. I've also recently aquired a Nikon D100 and have been shooting a lot of in-shop, in-progress images that I'm sure some of you folks would find interesting.
The older I get, the more I realize I've yet to learn, and the less time I have to do it.

Try imagestation.com, I just prefer photobucket because of it's simplicity.

Chuck

SDH, I'm glad to learn that you and Jim Tucker are good friends. He's simply a great guy, a very honest man, and, or course, a great craftsman. I believe it will turn out to be a very simple but bold rifle that will have the flavor of an O'Connor-style .270, but with comtemporary advantages and features, such as Mark Penrod's wonderful metalwork, complete with his amazingly precise barrel and chamber work.

The Milliron/Burgess rifle I took down to Jim's as reference is a very, very special rifle (built in 1972!), that has a wonderful and very personal story behind it, and I treasure it. Jim copied the pistol grip very closely on this .270 he's stocking, and ever since he's completed that grip he's marveled at how well that design helps control the rifle. I could write a feature article on Earl Milliron's career and work, and I've threatened to do so for years. His story really deserves to be told, and his Jack O'Connor stories are priceless, as are his letters from O'Connor, which I've had the privilage to read.

After Jim's through with that .270, I'd like to get in touch with you about photographing it, as well as the Milliron rifle, plus some other stuff. As far as I'm concerned, your gun photography will stand with the best.

AD