ok, so I took the plunge into a rifle project. Picked up a VZ24 rifle yesterday. Everything looks like it is in real nice shape on it, so I think I'm ready to get started. This is going to be a cheap project - just a rebarrel and a new stock initially. I may put on a different safety or trigger later, though. It will be a plain working rifle, not a showpiece. I want to start using it, not let it sit in pieces for the next year...

I thought I knew what I wanted to do with it, but now I'm not so sure. Initially, it was going to be a 416 Taylor, but now I'm considering other chamberings (never should have opened up Cartridges of the World...). Is there any reason why any of these would not work - I reload so wildcats are not a problem:
416 Taylor
338 WinMag
25-284
22-250
330 Dakota

I'm leaning more towards the 338WM or the Dakota at present. They offer a much better trajectory than the 416. The only question I have is the availability of Dakota brass - or is it easy enough to form it from 404 Jeff? Anyone shooting this round know for sure? Does anyone have a sample 416 Taylor and/or 330 Dakota round they would be willing to part with for a little monetary persuasion?

Are the fatter rounds like the Jeff and 284 based cartridges much more difficult to get feeding properly? Are the belted mags any easier?

What about bolt face modifications? Is there enough room on the bolt face for the larger head of the Dakota?

Does anyone have a gunsmith recommendation for central Minnesota to handle the rebarrel? What barrel brands would be best?

I'm sure I can handle the restocking and other final details. I just need a decent smith to get the new barrel chambered and installed right. Is it advised to install any additional recoil lugs if I go with the 416 Taylor? Any stock recommendations out there? I'm looking for a stout model 70 style stock with a nice straight comb.

Thanks for any tips or info! Any help will be great, as this is my first real rifle project. maxman

hmmmm,,

where to start....

If you want it cheapcheap, your barrel choices are going to be slim. Find a local barrel smith and ask him what reamer's he's got... that will keep your cost way down.

Midway has various barrels for sale, but I'll suggest for a cheap cheap, that you shy away from anything other than a .473 headsizes case, as opening the bolt and working on feeding will add $$ to your project.

I would suggest, as most smiths have a 30-06 gages and reamers, that you stick with something like a 338-06 or 35 whelen. Midway has the 338 for like 90 bucks
http://www.midwayusa.com/rewriteaproduct/289995

this would be a nice, major power, low buck sporter...

add 50-75 bucks for the guy to mount it and headspace it.

as for stocks, you could get a lowbuck ramline, for like 70 bucks... and have ~220+action cost into it... and no sights....

jeffe

If cheap is the key word here stay away from any cartridge that has magnum in it's name. You'll have to open the bolt face, possible feed rail work, may have to modify the magazine box.

30-06 length cartridges work great without any of the modifications.I went with a 9.3 X 62 on mine (I'm in the middle of building one too.)A 338-06 would be a great choice too.

As for a barrel, Lothor-Walther(SP?) has a very nice chambered, threaded and crowned barrel for $160. I would highly recommend spending the extra $60 for it over an Adams&Bennet. One thing that's not on your list is a trigger upgrade, That would be the best $35 you'll ever spend on the rifle! You can get A Timney from MidwayUSA pretty cheap and its a big improvement over the milspec one you have now.

A word of caution, I wanted to build a cheap rifle too. The total bill for mine is looking to be around $1900 for the finished rifle and it may go up more. It's just hard to see those beautiful custom M98's and not want a few of the nice things for my rifle. It seemed like such a bargan when I found that 1909 Argi for a $100

[ 06-27-2003, 20:19: Message edited by: TC1 ]

I wouldn't bother with a 416 Taylor, the case operates at higher pressure than the 416 Remington to get the same velocity...so I'd go with the 416 Remington..My 24 is a 416 Remington and I love it....

However, unless your headed for africa, I would say the 338 is a much better choice. It is the finest cartridge in the world IMO...A 210 Nosler at 3005 FPS or a 300 gr. Woodleigh at 2400 FPS, now how in he world can you beat that with anything!! I have shot a number of Cape Buffalo with that 300 gr. Woodleigh, without a hitch and it will shoot lengthwise through and elk..The 210 NOslers is a super elk round if your hunting open sagebrush or timber, it will get the job done...I have shot a lot of elk and deer with that load along with more than several moose. With a 250 monolithic Ross Seyfried has shot a bunch of Cape Buffalo..We both agreed it killed Buffalo about as well as anything else in its class such as the 9.3's or 375....

If you plan on putting a scope on it, you will need to bend the bolt handle and probably redo the safety. While the barrel is off, I would recommend you square the bolt face and lap the lugs. Tools are available from Midway to do this, or it may be a job for your gunsmith.
I bought the $70 ramline, and its a good stock for the money.
A word of warning. If your planning on a cheap hunting rifle, sell it off now. This project has cost me more than what I would have paid for a new rifle, and I doubt ever will be worth what I have put into it. However, its been a fun project and I have never regretted taking it on.

Well, I decided... I've really wanted a 416 Rigby for some time now, so doing a 416 Taylor just didn't seem right. Kinda like cheating.

I'm going to go with the 338WinMag. The 330 Dakota seemed like a lot more trouble than the extra fps were worth. At least with the 338, I'll always be able to find factory ammo in a pinch. I've decided this will be an elk/bear rifle when all said and done.

I'm sure it is easy to spend huge amounts of money on a custom rifle. Just browsing the Brownells catalog makes my calculator hurt. I'm willing to spend some money, but since this is a project, it will be easier to spread it out.

First, get a smith to put the new bbl on and the bolt face adjusted. I can make the magazine and feed changes, I'm pretty sure. I can put the stock on and fit that properly. Having the receiver drilled and tapped is a minor concern. Adding a new bolt shroud and trigger w/safety should be pretty straightforward, when that time comes.

I can bend the bolt handle down with some careful torch work. The bolt handle on the VZ seems a lot longer then other 98s, so I think there will be plenty there to simply heat up and bend down (with the appropriate heat sink to protect the bolt body). Of course, I could just lop off the straight handle and weld on something smaller and cleaner at the right angle.

That sound like a reasonable plan? Not a truly cheap plan, but still lets me do a lot of the work myself to save a little cash. It'll be much more satisfying than just dropping $600 for a new Remington, I think! Thanks for any input or things I might have missed. maxman

If you haven't re-worked feed rails for a mag cartridge successfully before, I'd suggest you get the bolt modified and do that BEFORE you do any of the other mods.

No sense putting a lot of money into barrel, stock, accessories, etc., for an action you may have to throw away.

Modifying feed rails IS possible for those who haven't done it before, if they really study what they are doing before they do it, and proceed VERY slowly, but it is rare that it works out well on the first action one tries. It is also POSSIBLE to professionally correct ones done incorrectly, but that is a lot more work and a LOT more money than just having it done by an experienced 'smith to start with.

Suggest you either plan to get it done professionally, or stick with a cartridge suited for the action as is.

A good cartridge would be a .338x57, and darned few folk have one of those so it would be almost unique wherever you might hunt.

Good luck,

AC

[ 06-28-2003, 02:30: Message edited by: Alberta Canuck ]

Mauser do it yourself page This link may be of some help. Some of the stuff looks hideous but there are a few that have built mausers on the cheap and don't mind sharing.

again,
338-09 WILL be the easist way to get here from here.

jeffe

maxman
Why not consider the 9,3x62. This will entail less action modifications, saving you money and giving you a cartridge that still has enough power for moose and bear, but not too much to use on deer and pigs. I use a 9,3x74R quite a bit and really like the calibre.

I've been studying the action again, and maybe a belted mag round IS more trouble than it's worth. I have heard lots of good things about the 338-06 (thanks jeffeosso), but I am concerned about the large velocity difference between it and the 338 WinMag. Trajectory is a main concern for me, as I want to be able to use the rifle for all sorts of shots.

Has anyone worked with the Ackley Improved version of the 338-06? What kind of real life velocity can one expect from the improved round? If I'm going to do a wildcat, it might as well be a good one.

I know that regular 30-06 rounds will feed nicely from the existing magazine (I tried them), but what about the improved shoulder? Will that still feed right or maybe require just a bit of feed rail work? thanks again, maxman

This is definitely a project. I'd like to do as much of the work myself as possible. This is as much a learning experience as it is a need for a rifle. I do not have a lathe or mill myself, but I could get access to one if needed. Thanks for the tips on the follower! I'll keep that in mind.

I've even pondered installing a short-chambered bbl from Brownells and renting the appropriate finish reamer to finish the chambering by hand. Once the bbl is installed, all one would need to do is give the reamer a few careful turns, try the go gauge, and repeat until the bolt just closes on the gauge, correct? I think there is nothing truly mysterious about the chambering, as long as you take your time and use accurate measuring devices.

I've been looking into the 9.3x62 and 9.3x64 cartridges as well. The 9.3x62 doesn't seem to have any advantages over the 35 Whelen or the 338-06, but....it seems that the 9.3x64 has all the power I am looking for, with less modifications needed. The bolt may still have to be opened up, but not as much as for the magnum sized case head, and I'm thinking that the feed problems will probably not be a concern, as the case body is not as large as the Dakota or the WinMag. Plus, there is no belt. I just am not fond of belted brass, I guess, but I can accept it if the rest of the cartridge has the performance needed.

Where can one get 9.3x64 brass? What does it cost? As far as I know, you can't form it from any other case. What about load data? This cartridge is also factory loaded by RWS, correct? That should help with availability, I would think.

Thanks for all the help so far. It's nice to be able to call on resources here for these questions! maxman

maxman

RWS brass can be hard to find in USA. The 9,3X62 is a bit slover than the 64, but at 740 m/s with a 285 grain bullet will do for most game. The round is to my opinion better since it has a larger selection of ammo and more makers than example 338-06 or 35 whelen. For the 9,3 you will find ammo almost any were in Europe.

The round is quite popular in Africa too. My second option would be a 338 win which is also a fantastic round

A factory round will also help you save the second hand value a bit better than the wildcats

Atkinson, tag in

/ JOHAN

JOHAN-

I did find a source here in the US for 9.3x64 brass....$110/100 pcs, so it's not too bad. The bad part is the loading die set @ $97. It's a bit pricy, but what a way to get 375 H&H performance in a regular length action! It would almost be fitting to put a great European round in a Mauser action also.

For me, the velocity advantage of the 9.3x64 over the 9.3x62 (or the 35 Whelen) would be worth the extra effort. This is also why I was interested in either the 338-06AI or 338 WinMag in the first place.

Does anyone know who makes 9.3mm barrels, by chance? I might be going back and forth a lot here, but I never really looked at the 9.3 calibers before. They have more to offer than I realized!

maxman

Maxman,
Both Lothar-Walther (http://www.lothar-walther.com/us/) & HalfMoon (Jim Bair (406)892-4409) (and I'm sure several others) offer nice 9.3 barrels.

I'm looking at building a 9.3x64 on a std M98 (Legacy Sports Intl) action and the mag box will need to be widened just a tad to .93" (I believe), to get 4 - 9.3x64 rounds to stay down. A good gunsmith can widen the box appropriately. I will have Jim Wisner do this for me sometime in the future as he's all setup to do this.

Jeff P

Maxman http://www.lothar-walther.de/us/

If you want 338 power or nearly so from your Mauser at the least cost, look at the 35 Whelen Improved. I have built several of them they all shoot well (250 grain bullets at 2650 fps)They have all been very accurate and very easy to make work in the mauser. You don't have to modify the extractor or the bolt face, feeding is not a problem as the 06 parent case is nearly the same as the 8x57 original. If you want to contact me to discuss this or if you need somebody to fit the barrel I can do that for you as well. I took a 35 Improved to Africa 2 years ago 6 animals 7 shots if I had not screwed up the shot on the zebra it would have been 6 one shot kills on the bigger plains game no springboks or duikers. A different 35 improved is going with me in 2 weeks back to Africa. I think the 35 Whelen Improved is one of the most sensible medium bore conversions you can do. As I said I have the reamers and can do it for you if you like.

Get the 35 Whelen, you won't be sorry.

I've got to pipe in on the 35Whelen Ackley Improved. Get your hands on P.O.'s books, if I remember right, it's got just about the same performance as a 338win; bullet weight, velocity, and energy taken into account. It's my next project after a 280AI.

I just got done building a 300WSM on a VZ24, and there are some things that I just couldn't do (chambering and bolt face). If you're going to have a gunsmith chamber it, ask him to true up the front of the receiver. Lapping in the bolt lugs you can do yourself, just takes a little patience and some lapping compound. If this is your first one, stick with anything built on the '06; no work on the feed rails, bolt face, extractor, or magazine; just makes life a whole lot easier. Feeding shouldn't be a problem if you stick with the parent case dimensions; Numrich sells single stack magazines that drop into the trigger guard if you run into any feeding problems.

I spent about double what I was expecting to spend when I started building my first one (.243). But...I built it, it shoots like a dream, and there isn't another one like it in the world.

P.S. look real hard at KG Gun Kote as opposed to bluing. Just a suggestion.

my .02

Ok, I've decided - this time for sure! It'll be a 338-06 Ackley Improved. I can keep the bolt and magazine as is, and pre-shortchambered bbls are available. It will just be a matter of running the Ackley finish reamer in and cleaning it up to final dimensions. Performance ought to be right about where I want, and building it should proceed pretty quickly. I need to have it all finished and loads developed for an October elk hunt.

After looking at all the options, those who said that sticking with a 06 based case were absolutely correct. I'll put it in a cheap ramline stock for now, with a nice laminated one in the future. Looking at a Timney featherweight deluxe trigger with a safety, and then a replacement bolt shroud to remove the military safety.

I'm planning on starting with 35 Whelen brass and necking down to ensure that I get a good starting shoulder for case forming. I will be doing a baked on finish, like gun-kote, rather then bluing. First, it's something I can do myself, and second, it is more durable from what I have seen. The last Enfield I refinished was just painted with black engine header enamel, and it has been a very good finish.

Thanks for all the input! I really appreciate the tips from those who have gone this route before. maxman

Pfeifer,
I used the standard box on several of my 9.3x64 and they fed slick as snot..I widened the box on one as it gave me a bit of trouble..I would try it first, it is so close...

The 9.3x64 is canned power, a 375 in a small case...It is a simply amazing round, the worlds best all around caliber with a 250 at plus 2800, a 286 at 2700, a 300 at 2600 plus and a 320 at 2500 in a 26" barrel...consideraly more than the Swift Reloading book which must have been conceived with lawsuits in mind, and to the point of being the most worthless re-loading book I have...

With the advent of available brass, it will do it all, so well that I see little use for anything else from rockchucks to Elephants....but we wouldn't want that would we?

I ordered the first set of materials yesterday. The barrel, stock, reloading dies, trigger, and action wrench are on the way. Turns out that Midway now has a Houge overmolded stock that fits the 98 Mauser. Comes with sling mounts, butt pad, pillar bedding, and a nice palm swell in the grip for $99. I think it will be better than the cheap Ramline one. I'll let you know how it all fits when the time comes.

In the next day or two, I'll have a barrel vise built, and will start disassembly.

One quick question...is it better to get the baked on finish applied to the action and bbl separately (keeping it out of all threads), and then assemble them, or is it better to get the barreled action all put together and then finish coat it as a unit? maxman

oh - I wanted to thank Ray for the tips on the 9.3x64. I'm sure that will be the next project I tackle. If (I mean when...) this current project works out, I will probably shoot it until I can get the 9.3x64 built. That's the kind of all around performance I want to get, but didn't want to tackle it for the first project.

On another note, the 9.3x64 brass I found is actually reformed from 458 WinMag brass (and still shows that headstamp). I ordered one piece of it from the company so I can see what kind of job they did. I'm assuming they turned off the belt and reduced the rim diameter by a bit before running it through a form die and trimming, but I can report back on it in a couple days. They claim that it matches all 9.3x64 dimensions exactly. maxman

maxman

I have friends who made 9,3X64 brass from 338 win cases with very little trouble.

/ JOHAN

I'm curious. How do you make 9.3x64 brass from 338 or 458 Win Mag cases? Both those cases are belted but the 9.3 isn't, or is it? The picture Saeed has doesn't show a belt.

turn the belt off, recut the groove.

jeffe