The overwhelming recommendations or view points on these forums are that a rifle should be CRF and chambered for a rimless calibre. It is also demonstrated very often by different postings that many shooters do follow the prescription of CRF + rimless.
But out in the real world of say shooters who will be less guns/ammo minded than forum frequenters do you think CRF/Push Feed and Rimless/Belted is much of an issue or an influence on a purchase.
Mike
Posts: 7206 | Location: Sydney, Australia | Registered: 22 May 2002
In a word, no. Hence the successes of the Remington 700. Granted that only covers half of your question and doesn't address the belted magnums etc. but most folks who are casual gun purchasers are going to purchase the brand they like most in the caliber they like most, regardless of whether or not it has a belt, or the action is a push feed or CRF. It's just not a concern for those people.
Posts: 852 | Location: Austin | Registered: 24 October 2003
What you have said is about what I have observed in Australia. I suspect that the average gun buyer when it comes to calibre/rifle is similar to many of us on these forums when we are buying a computer.
Mike
Posts: 7206 | Location: Sydney, Australia | Registered: 22 May 2002
Quote: I suspect that the average gun buyer when it comes to calibre/rifle is similar to many of us on these forums when we are buying a computer.
Mike-
Not true. Like Kingfisher said, look at the success of the Remington M700 (or Savage, or Ruger, or M70 Stealth, or...). MANY thousands of these rifles have been sold in 7mm Mag, 300 Mag, 338 Mag, etc. with no alleged "push feed/belted case" problems.
This is another example of trying to make an issue out of something that just isn't.
Why did you sell your CRF M70's to get Weatherby's, in a belted magnum caliber?? Are you incompetent, or just didn't feel that it was an issue?
Well for the guy thats loaded (or saved for a very long time) The CRF on an african hunt may give you peace of mind. Don't get me wrong I love CRF rifles they are smoother and nicer to operate. But having said that my prefered big game hunting rifle has both evil features. It is a push feed Remington Sendero in .300 Wby mag. IMO the .300 Wby is still one of the best big game cartiges out there today, even with the short, super short, shorty short, ect.... stuff thats been released. So is the CRF + beltless a MUST! NO!!! It's nice for sure, but the push feed + belted works real good too. By the way all of my push feeds will load flawlesly upside down,, I've tried
Posts: 439 | Location: USA | Registered: 01 December 2003
I don't think it matters much. With the vast majority of hunters/shooters buying production factory rifles and not handloading, it boils down to what represents a good value to most. Everyone has preferences, but the Remingtons, Winchesters, etc., are competitively priced. Cartridges that have been popular for decades are not going to fall out of favor quickly, despite the high impact marketing for the new short magnums. There are simply too many satisfied gun owners with rifles chambered to successful and popular cartridges that can be found anywhere.
As for me, I won't soon be getting rid of any of my extremely accurate custom rifles based on push feed Remingtons, or any of my custom Mauser-based hunting rifles because they are chambered for belted magnums. I'll probably keep the other pieces of crap, as well.
I will admit, however, that my next custom rifle will be buit on my new M1999 long action with the magnum bolt face and magazine. The new cartridge will be a wildcat based on a shortened beltless Ultra Mag case.Why not?
Posts: 529 | Location: Missouri | Registered: 31 January 2002
it is my personal opinion that push feed (older) Reminton 700, 722, 721, 725, Winchester M-70, and Sako pushfeed actions are actually superior for non dangerous game.
My reasons are that there's so many more of them than CRF models and that they are safer when confronted with an "overloaded" hand loaded shell.
Posts: 28849 | Location: western Nebraska | Registered: 27 May 2003
What I meant by the computer analogy was that computer nuts probably have the computer's version of CRF/Push Feed and Rimless/Belted, free floating and bedding etc. whereas most of us just buy Rem 700/Ruger 77 computers and take
them out of the box and turn them on.
I have probably had over the years a similar number of Wbys, M70 and Rem 700s but for my return to Wbys (and all Wbys at that) I probably represent a buyer profile where the "whole package" is the decider.
I don't know if many shooters are like me in the sense of matching calibre and gun. For example, the idea of customised M70 and especially a customised M98 in a Wby calibre leaves me cold. Same deal for a 375 H&H in a done up Wby rifle
Mike
Posts: 7206 | Location: Sydney, Australia | Registered: 22 May 2002
I think I will stick with my various pushfeeds and std. magnum boltfaces right on thru to my Contender, which by the way is the most basic pushfeed. Push one in and shoot. I don't get the opportunity to hunt dangerous game but the stuff I hunt rarely has the opportunity to know the difference. Doesn't mean I'll shxt can my 98 that was rebarreled .284 Win...love that gun. At the local rifle range I see by far the majority of shooters using store bought ammo in basic grade remingtons, winchesters, savages in the most common chamberings (.270, 30-06, .243, .308) . I don't expect that to change any time soon regardless of the new "short fats". I think that the "non obsessed" shooters who go out and buy ultra mag caliber guns regardless of configuration will quickly realize that this could be an error and that learning shoot is a process that requires first and foremost extreme control of the weapon. To me this means starting with something you can work with and learn trigger control, breathing, ammo and assorted techniques we as regular shooters do as standard procedure. A couple of friends met me the other day at the range both carrying 30-378 Weatherbys with the idea they would sight them in. Each fired four-five shots and pronounced the gun "good to go". I am still trying to figure out where most of the shots went as they didn't hit paper. I was shooting my 6mm TC wildcat and they couldn't understand why I would shoot so many times just to sight it in. The concept of load development had never occurred to them. These guys have no idea of the differences in push feed- controlled round feed, Remington - mauser type action or anything related to either. In a nutshell my recommendation would be for those to learn to shoot first then you can make better decisions about what to shoot.
Posts: 901 | Location: Denver, CO USA | Registered: 01 February 2001
in the world outside of this forum a shooter usually goes for what they think or what the gunshop push's as being the best brand. In the gunshops I frequent the sako banner is pushed. Most shooters would not be able to tell youwhat the diff was between a crf & pf. This forum is a gathering of like minded people in most respects whom have a passion for firearms and calibres, I am adamant that this forum is not representitive of the general shooting community.
Posts: 7505 | Location: Australia | Registered: 22 May 2002
Quote: I figure it will make a nice target rifle that you could sit at the bench and fire 30-40 rounds and still have the power for medium range deer hunting.
You would be quite correct.
Let me tell you a story about a trip to Wal-Mart with a fellow hunter. We were both members of a hunting club, and this guy had been hunting since he was a kid. His father gave him a .270 win, and he had never made a trip to the range with it. He asked me to ride 20 miles to the small town that had a Wal-Mart. We get there and go to the sporting goods counter. He tells the clerk "give some some .270's". The clerk asks, "what grain", he replies "I don't care nothing about no grains, just give me some 270's!" With a look of amazement, the guy hands him a box of Rem 150gr rn.
Posts: 3097 | Location: Louisiana | Registered: 28 November 2001
This forum is a gathering of like minded people in most respects whom have a passion for firearms and calibres, I am adamant that this forum is not representitive of the general shooting community.
Quote: But out in the real world of say shooters who will be less guns/ammo minded than forum frequenters do you think CRF/Push Feed and Rimless/Belted is much of an issue or an influence on a purchase.
I'm pretty guns and ammo minded. Those things don't matter to me at all. "Gun enthusiasts" tend to make mountains of molehills, and these are prime examples of the phenomenon.
Posts: 1325 | Location: Bristol, Tennessee, USA | Registered: 24 December 2003
One should not buy rifles based upon resale value but I never follow my own advice anyway so...
Specific to hunting rifles and as a group, CRF proponents will pay more for their guns than PS guys. They are narrower in their gun buying goals (please, not narrow minded) and will not settle for less. All else being equal, push feed guys tend to be more pragmatic , hence more competion for their interest and resulting lower prices. This has been my experience over 30 yrs or so; yours may be different.
To support the claim, try to find a $15,000 Remington 700. No matter who stocked it, who engraved it or who did the metal work, it just can't be found in a quanity that suggests any real market for it.
Posts: 11143 | Location: Texas, USA | Registered: 22 September 2003
I doubt the average guy buying a rifle to go hunting with even knows what a push feed is as opposed to controlled round feed. He just wants a rifle to go bang when he pulls the trigger and are happy if it hits a beer can at 50 or 75yds. I see hundreds of hunters like that at the range every year. They are your average hunter and they are the majority.
Posts: 372 | Location: Alberta | Registered: 13 December 2001
Well fellas, I own both, and have shot more than I could count of both. They each have their place, but when all is said and done, I'll take the Winchester-style action over any of them.
As for belts, their great for doubles when you actually need them, other than that, you can have them. Another great marketing ploy by the boys who don't shoot, many years ago when it was applied to the 300 Win. Mag.. The cartridge never needed it then, and it don't now either. Sounds more manly though...maybe there was something to that I don't know.
If there is anything that I do like about the WSM line of cartridges, it's the absence of the belt. Of course, that's about as far as I could stretch that one.
When I need a real magnum, I'll grab the old 375H&H, until then, most things stop breathing after I administer 180 grains at 2500 fps from good ole 30-06 in the boiler room. Shoots extremely well, and I can shoot it all day from the bench. What more does a guy need??
Posts: 1021 | Location: Prineville, OR 97754 | Registered: 14 July 2002
Most casual shooters don't know the difference. They seem startled when I bring it up. Also there are many target shooters in our club and most of them favor push feed actions. You see they seem to work a little better when the cartridge is single fed. Even if these match rifles have a functioning magazine they just lay the cartridge on top of the follower and close the bolt.
For myself I prefer CRF when I can get it for hunting and push feed for target rifles.
