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I hear lots of people say they are ugly...but I mean mechanicaly wrong or of poor design. It's CRF Is the two piece bolt really that big a deal. heck it must be a 1/4 pin that holds it in place. What are its serious design flaws? What makes it unrealiable? Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | ||
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Mike, I think the easier question to answer is what is Right with the Savage bolt action! From what I've seen they suffer from cheapness from start to finish. Beginning with the design and moving on to choice of materials and I've never known one to be that highly finished. I've seen what seems like truck loads of old Savages that won't feed AND jam. Mostly due to that compilation of tin and cheap plastic they like to call a magazine. Seems to wear out pretty quickly! One other thing is that to my knowledge most Savages are NOT CRF, but rather they are push feed. I believe it was on this BB that I read that only the Short mags and maybe some of their really big magnums have any sort of CRF Tom | |||
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Okay so in addition to the magazine problem... What other problems occur because of the "cheapness" Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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The rifle is a no frills concept from the start. You can fix one up, but it's like putting a nice set of wheels on a Ford Pinto. The lips on the magazine will let all the cartridges go at one time on occasion. It usually happens after the 1st round is fired and the action is cycled. You draw the bolt back and all the rounds land by you feet. Your standing there with an empty rifle that should have bullets in it. This can be embarrassing at the range, worse on a hunt. The stocks are hideous. Shaped funny and way to fat. Some people say the action is weak and lets go easily, but I've never blown one up. The barrel nut ain't gonna win you any beauty contest. All that said, the most accurate out of the box rifle I've ever owned was a Savage. Terry -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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Heres my 2 cents worth (I'll give you a refund for 50%) Anyways, I have a savage for a long time now in 338winny. Its my goto gun, sad to say. They are but ugly, no denying that but I have had zero issues with mine. I have run some pretty hot rounds through it that probably shouldnt have. No feeding issues and what other gun out there can you change the bbl in less then 10min and be back out at the range. I'm trying to find a 416 bbl for it so I can get me a 416taylor. A bad day with a savage is still better than a day with a remington. A lesson in irony The Food Stamp Program, administered by the U.S. Department of Agriculture, is proud to be distributing this year the greatest amount of free Meals and Food Stamps ever, to 46 million people. Meanwhile, the National Park Service, administered by the U.S. Department of the Interior, asks us... "Please Do Not Feed the Animals." Their stated reason for the policy is because "The animals will grow dependent on handouts and will not learn to take care of themselves." Thus ends today's lesson in irony. | |||
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On the other hand, most Savage bolts will outshoot most custom guns !! I have 2, a .270 WSM and a .300 Ultra Mag. The Stainless/ laminated WSM gun feeds perfectly and shoots .25 MOA all day long. I have only shot .5 MOA with the .300 Ultra, but then again that was the first handload I made for it. There's nothing wrong with a Savage action, in fact they handle cartridge blow outs better than most actions. There are those who don't like 'em, and those that do !!! Each to his own. Elite Archery and High Country dealer. | |||
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It is like the saying about fat chicks and mopeds - they are fun to ride but you dont want your friends to see you with either one. William Berger True courage is being scared to death but saddling up anyway. - John Wayne The courageous may not live forever, but the timid do not live at all. | |||
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They are long actions. The finding some rear bedding area is challenge.The rear guard screw is wood screw. I find mine ugly and that's compared to P-17 sporters! It's the bolt handle at the end and the cocking indicator/bolt release/bolt stop/sear up the side. They are evolving,they are now center feed, You can hunt longer with the wind at your back | |||
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Mike, There is nothing wrong with a Savage rifle that a little garlic won't cure. Or, a wreath of garlic for that matter, but hey... I won't receive them after sundown. I have my customers stand in the driveway and remove them from their cases before entering. This exposes them to direct sunlight. _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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Check out the new long range Savage in 6.5-284 and 308. Just read a article by LS and he shot .85 group at 500 yards with a factory rifle. 30" bull barrel and a laminate stock...I may have to buy one! ****************************************************************** R. Lee Ermey: "The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." ****************************************************************** We're going to be "gifted" with a health care plan we are forced to purchase and fined if we don't, Which purportedly covers at least ten million more people, without adding a single new doctor, but provides for 16,000 new IRS agents, written by a committee whose chairman says he doesn't understand it, passed by a Congress that didn't read it but exempted themselves from it, and signed by a President, with funding administered by a treasury chief who didn't pay his taxes, for which we'll be taxed for four years before any benefits take effect, by a government which has already bankrupted Social Security and Medicare, all to be overseen by a surgeon general who is obese, and financed by a country that's broke!!!!! 'What the hell could possibly go wrong?' | |||
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The problem is that the Savage action is one of the stronger production actions made, the lock time is faster than the Remington 700, Ruger 77 and Win M70 and the design makes for easy customization. That makes them unreliable and prone to problems. I own Remington, Ruger, Winchester, CZ, MRC and Savage rifles so I'm just speaking from experience not predjudice. Frank "I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money." - Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953 NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite | |||
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So the theme I keep hereing is "cheap" design... But so far all I have heard really is feeding issues as opposed to other problems. Most feeding issues can be corrected. Heck steal mag box insert...modify a follower from some other rifle? people keep saying cheap materials...but a Toyota Corolla uses cheap materials compared to a Mercedes but it is a great car for its purpose. Someone mentioned the rear guard screw is a wood screw. So what, all it does is hold the trigger guard on...it not as if it hase to be set into a piece of steel. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Leave it to you Berger! LMFAO!!!!! | |||
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You got it in a nut shell. That said I'd rather have a nice M70 and a Mercedes Than a Savage and a Corolla Terry -------------------------------------------- Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play? | |||
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In the past 2 1/2 years I have bought 1 Savage stainless Varmint rifle and 4 Mod. 200 Stevens. These rifles were all MOA out of the box. These rifles have given many enjoyable hours of shooting. They do have problems but nothing great. 12vbss-s in .223. I enjoy the 12vbss-s as much as any of my rifles. The Stevens : UGLY ? As used in this thread seems to be a term used by some who are trying to be recognized as sophisticates. So be recognized- I guess. roger Old age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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I find that most people who do not like Savages fall into one of two categories: 1 - Those that think they're ugly 2 - Those that get out shot by the guy who has one. I have 4 Savages, 223 and 22-250 Varmint rifles, a 300 Win Mag, and a 338-06 that I installed the barrel on. The varmint weight rifles group in the .4 to .6 inch ranges consistently, which is about as good as I can do with any rifle. I have never had any cartridges fly from the magazine, nor heard of this before. I wonder if the spring and follower are installed correctly. A "flaw" is that it's easy to put this in backwards if the rifle is disassembled. The barrel nut is simply an aesthetic issue, as well as the bolt release ("Ugly"). On the other hand the safety location on the tang is better than most. The trigger pull is crummy on the older models, but so are most factory rifles today. There is no doubt that the Savage is designed for low cost and ease of manufacture. To be honest, the fact that they have such good performance is a testament to the design. It's a shame that those that don'r care for theri looks let that detract from the excellence of their performance. | |||
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I've owned them off and on since 1968. Yeah, they're ugly (but remember that slim ugly girl in high school who always had a date because she "delivered"?). Bought a Stevens 200 for my youngest grandson and it shoots extremely well. Built up a long range PD rifle from a Striker (I'm a lefty, liked the left bolt/right port). That Striker is going after 1,000 yd PDs!. In the cabinet are a number of Rem 700s, even custom rifles. But the Savage does perform. .395 Family Member DRSS, po' boy member Political correctness is nothing but liberal enforced censorship | |||
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I customize a few rifles every year. I grew up a Remington man. In fact I own over 27 model 700s and/or model 7s. The two of the last 3 rifles I bought personally were Savages, the other was a Kimber. I have serious reservations that I will ever buy another Remington. Both Savages were bought just for the actions, they have been trued, lapped, timed, had aftermarket triggers, stocks and barrels put on them. Both will shoot between .250 and .500 from 100 yards to 1000 yards. Yes, they may be ugly but they shoot on a blue collar budget. Ron Colburn, Savage CEO has done a great deal to improve the quality, function and looks of his Savage firearms. In my personal opinion Savage has done more in the way of inovation for the working rifle. If you look at the factory class rifles, and competing today the Savage is now taking the market share. I can only see this continuing. Remington has failed with the 788, 710, to produce a low end rifle that can compete with the Savage. The 798 and 799 that I have seen have a horrible metal to wood fit and finish. The 700s are not of the same quality as they were 20 years ago. There are so many Remington clones out there that are trued from the get go because they are CNC manufactured. If Remington was truly smart they would have Jerry Stiller, Jim Borden, or Barney Lawton bid to make their 700s for them. Again I see Savage moving forward with their product line. They can only get better. Longshot | |||
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Let us know how it goes... _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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I float the tang area and bed where the actual rear guard screw is. It seems to work fine. ______________________ Always remember you're unique, just like everyone else. | |||
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ditto..... blaming guns for crime is like blaming silverware for rosie o'donnell being fat | |||
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All the ones ( 6 or so) I have around will not feed worth a dam. The extractors are weak leaving many a case in a some what dirty chamber. Other then that they shoot some mighty small groups and make great varmit rifles. I wouldn't use one on big game. | |||
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You may have a poit there PDS. roger Old age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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