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So what is actually wrong with the Savage action
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Picture of Mike_Dettorre
posted
I hear lots of people say they are ugly...but I mean mechanicaly wrong or of poor design.

It's CRF

Is the two piece bolt really that big a deal. heck it must be a 1/4 pin that holds it in place.

What are its serious design flaws?

What makes it unrealiable?


Mike

Never under estimate the internet community to use any opportunity to reply to a post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence problem.



What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
 
Posts: 10068 | Location: Loving retirement in Boise, ID | Registered: 16 December 2003Reply With Quote
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Picture of tdobesh
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Mike,

I think the easier question to answer is what is Right with the Savage bolt action!

From what I've seen they suffer from cheapness from start to finish. Beginning with the design and moving on to choice of materials and I've never known one to be that highly finished.

I've seen what seems like truck loads of old Savages that won't feed AND jam. Mostly due to that compilation of tin and cheap plastic they like to call a magazine. Seems to wear out pretty quickly!

One other thing is that to my knowledge most Savages are NOT CRF, but rather they are push feed. I believe it was on this BB that I read that only the Short mags and maybe some of their really big magnums have any sort of CRF


Tom
 
Posts: 162 | Location: Lincoln, NE U.S.A. | Registered: 07 February 2004Reply With Quote
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Picture of Mike_Dettorre
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Okay so in addition to the magazine problem...

What other problems occur because of the "cheapness"


Mike

Never under estimate the internet community to use any opportunity to reply to a post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence problem.



What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
 
Posts: 10068 | Location: Loving retirement in Boise, ID | Registered: 16 December 2003Reply With Quote
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Picture of TC1
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The rifle is a no frills concept from the start. You can fix one up, but it's like putting a nice set of wheels on a Ford Pinto.

The lips on the magazine will let all the cartridges go at one time on occasion. It usually happens after the 1st round is fired and the action is cycled. You draw the bolt back and all the rounds land by you feet. Your standing there with an empty rifle that should have bullets in it. This can be embarrassing at the range, worse on a hunt.

The stocks are hideous. Shaped funny and way to fat.

Some people say the action is weak and lets go easily, but I've never blown one up.

The barrel nut ain't gonna win you any beauty contest.

All that said, the most accurate out of the box rifle I've ever owned was a Savage.

Terry


--------------------------------------------

Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?
 
Posts: 6315 | Location: Mississippi | Registered: 18 May 2002Reply With Quote
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Heres my 2 cents worth (I'll give you a refund for 50%)

Anyways, I have a savage for a long time now in 338winny. Its my goto gun, sad to say. They are but ugly, no denying that but I have had zero issues with mine. I have run some pretty hot rounds through it that probably shouldnt have. No feeding issues and what other gun out there can you change the bbl in less then 10min and be back out at the range.

I'm trying to find a 416 bbl for it so I can get me a 416taylor.

A bad day with a savage is still better than a day with a remington.


A lesson in irony

The Food Stamp Program, administered by the U.S. Department of Agriculture, is proud to be distributing this year the greatest amount of free Meals and Food Stamps ever, to 46 million people.

Meanwhile, the National Park Service, administered by the U.S. Department of the Interior, asks us... "Please Do Not Feed the Animals." Their stated reason for the policy is because "The animals will grow dependent on handouts and will not learn to take care of themselves."

Thus ends today's lesson in irony.
 
Posts: 1626 | Location: Michigan but dreaming of my home in AK | Registered: 01 March 2006Reply With Quote
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Picture of bowhuntrrl
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On the other hand, most Savage bolts will outshoot most custom guns !! I have 2, a .270 WSM and a .300 Ultra Mag. The Stainless/ laminated WSM gun feeds perfectly and shoots .25 MOA all day long. I have only shot .5 MOA with the .300 Ultra, but then again that was the first handload I made for it. There's nothing wrong with a Savage action, in fact they handle cartridge blow outs better than most actions. There are those who don't like 'em, and those that do !!! Each to his own.


Elite Archery and High Country dealer.
 
Posts: 931 | Location: Somewhere....... | Registered: 07 October 2002Reply With Quote
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Picture of M1Tanker
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It is like the saying about fat chicks and mopeds - they are fun to ride but you dont want your friends to see you with either one.


William Berger

True courage is being scared to death but saddling up anyway. - John Wayne

The courageous may not live forever, but the timid do not live at all.
 
Posts: 3155 | Location: Rigby, ID | Registered: 20 March 2004Reply With Quote
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They are long actions. The finding some rear bedding area is challenge.The rear guard screw is wood screw.

I find mine ugly and that's compared to P-17 sporters! It's the bolt handle at the end and the cocking indicator/bolt release/bolt stop/sear up the side.

They are evolving,they are now center feed,


You can hunt longer with the wind at your back
 
Posts: 480 | Location: B.C.,Canada | Registered: 20 January 2002Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by M1Tanker:
It is like the saying about fat chicks and mopeds - they are fun to ride but you dont want your friends to see you with either one.


Yup. But I am going to buy one in 22-250, I'll just wear sunglasses at the range jumping
 
Posts: 2352 | Location: KENAI, ALASKA | Registered: 10 November 2001Reply With Quote
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Picture of Westpac
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Mike,

There is nothing wrong with a Savage rifle that a little garlic won't cure. Or, a wreath of garlic for that matter, but hey... Big Grin

I won't receive them after sundown. I have my customers stand in the driveway and remove them from their cases before entering. This exposes them to direct sunlight. Big Grin


_______________________________________________________________________________
This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life.
 
Posts: 3171 | Location: SLC, Utah | Registered: 23 February 2007Reply With Quote
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Picture of ROSCOE
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Check out the new long range Savage in 6.5-284 and 308. Just read a article by LS and he shot .85 group at 500 yards with a factory rifle. 30" bull barrel and a laminate stock...I may have to buy one!


******************************************************************
R. Lee Ermey: "The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle."
******************************************************************
We're going to be "gifted" with a health care plan we are forced to purchase and fined if we don't, Which purportedly covers at least ten million more people, without adding a single new doctor, but provides for 16,000 new IRS agents, written by a committee whose chairman says he doesn't understand it, passed by a Congress that didn't read it but exempted themselves from it, and signed by a President, with funding administered by a treasury chief who didn't pay his taxes, for which we'll be taxed for four years before any benefits take effect, by a government which has already bankrupted Social Security and Medicare, all to be overseen by a surgeon general who is obese, and financed by a country that's broke!!!!! 'What the hell could possibly go wrong?'
 
Posts: 2122 | Location: Arkansas | Registered: 03 June 2000Reply With Quote
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Picture of Fjold
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The problem is that the Savage action is one of the stronger production actions made, the lock time is faster than the Remington 700, Ruger 77 and Win M70 and the design makes for easy customization.

That makes them unreliable and prone to problems.

I own Remington, Ruger, Winchester, CZ, MRC and Savage rifles so I'm just speaking from experience not predjudice.


Frank



"I don't know what there is about buffalo that frightens me so.....He looks like he hates you personally. He looks like you owe him money."
- Robert Ruark, Horn of the Hunter, 1953

NRA Life, SAF Life, CRPA Life, DRSS lite

 
Posts: 12552 | Location: Kentucky, USA | Registered: 30 December 2002Reply With Quote
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Picture of Mike_Dettorre
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So the theme I keep hereing is "cheap" design...

But so far all I have heard really is feeding issues as opposed to other problems. Most feeding issues can be corrected.

Heck steal mag box insert...modify a follower from some other rifle?

people keep saying cheap materials...but a Toyota Corolla uses cheap materials compared to a Mercedes but it is a great car for its purpose.

Someone mentioned the rear guard screw is a wood screw. So what, all it does is hold the trigger guard on...it not as if it hase to be set into a piece of steel.


Mike

Never under estimate the internet community to use any opportunity to reply to a post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence problem.



What I have learned on AR, since 2001:
1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken.
2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps.
3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges.
4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down.
5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine.
6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle.
7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions.
8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA.
9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not.
10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact.
11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores.
12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence.
13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances.
 
Posts: 10068 | Location: Loving retirement in Boise, ID | Registered: 16 December 2003Reply With Quote
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Picture of Bill Soverns
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Leave it to you Berger! LMFAO!!!!! animal
 
Posts: 1268 | Location: Newell, SD, USA | Registered: 07 December 2001Reply With Quote
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Picture of TC1
posted Hide Post
You got it in a nut shell. That said I'd rather have a nice M70 and a Mercedes Than a Savage and a Corolla Big Grin

Terry


--------------------------------------------

Well, other than that Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?
 
Posts: 6315 | Location: Mississippi | Registered: 18 May 2002Reply With Quote
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Picture of bartsche
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Roll EyesIn the past 2 1/2 years I have bought 1 Savage stainless Varmint rifle and 4 Mod. 200 Stevens. These rifles were all MOA out of the box. These rifles have given many enjoyable hours of shooting.

They do have problems but nothing great.
12vbss-s in .223.
  • The ejector was pushed back while firing and jammed inside the bolt. Still is.There were no other pressure signs.
  • The accutrigger set trigger locks up about every 20 shots. Opening and closing the bolt usually corrects that. Never have adjusted the trigger as it came well set from the factory.
  • The firing pin would pierce 1/2 of the primers on PMP factory ammo.Not the case on at least 3 other .223s

    I enjoy the 12vbss-s as much as any of my rifles.

    The Stevens :
  • One got it's little ejector locked into the bolt as with the Savage.
  • The triggers took some work to get them reasonably operational.
  • There were feed problems that had to be solved.
  • The nuts that held the forward slinge swivel had to be removed as it and or the screw hit the barrel.
  • The one barrel that I changed was a bear. The factory not only uses the barrel lock nut(great feature) but also a substance that resembles Lok Tite Black Max.
  • Unlike the Savage Stainless the barrels on the Mod. 200s take an eternity to clean, even using a solvent BON-AMI mixture.
  • When cleaning the bolts you can not get too exhuberant when working around the extrators.They have been known to be moved a little too far and fly off into places unknown.Finding it and the detent can be a afternoon's work.


    UGLY ? As used in this thread seems to be a term used by some who are trying to be recognized as sophisticates. So be recognized- I guess. Razzerroger


    Old age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone..
  •  
    Posts: 10226 | Location: Temple City CA | Registered: 29 April 2003Reply With Quote
    <xs headspace>
    posted
    I built three rifles for LR target shooting--the Savage needed the least tweaking to get to 1/2 MOA than the Rem 700 and the Win 70. And the BVSS stock is the nicest for target work. I still don't quite trust the Rem bolt handle(soldered on!). Swapped the Sav handle out in 15 min for a nice Tac style. Trigger aftermarkets are more choices for the Rem and Win, tho.
     
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    I find that most people who do not like
    Savages fall into one of two categories:
    1 - Those that think they're ugly
    2 - Those that get out shot by the guy who has one.

    I have 4 Savages, 223 and 22-250 Varmint rifles, a 300 Win Mag, and a 338-06 that I installed the barrel on. The varmint weight rifles group in the .4 to .6 inch ranges consistently, which is about as good as I can do with any rifle.

    I have never had any cartridges fly from the magazine, nor heard of this before. I wonder if the spring and follower are installed correctly. A "flaw" is that it's easy to put this in backwards if the rifle is disassembled. The barrel nut is simply an aesthetic issue, as well as the bolt release ("Ugly"). On the other hand the safety location on the tang is better than most. The trigger pull is crummy on the older models, but so are most factory rifles today.

    There is no doubt that the Savage is designed for low cost and ease of manufacture. To be honest, the fact that they have such good performance is a testament to the design. It's a shame that those that don'r care for theri looks let that detract from the excellence of their performance.
     
    Posts: 41 | Location: New Mexico | Registered: 03 December 2006Reply With Quote
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    Picture of prof242
    posted Hide Post
    I've owned them off and on since 1968. Yeah, they're ugly (but remember that slim ugly girl in high school who always had a date because she "delivered"?). Bought a Stevens 200 for my youngest grandson and it shoots extremely well. Built up a long range PD rifle from a Striker (I'm a lefty, liked the left bolt/right port). That Striker is going after 1,000 yd PDs!. In the cabinet are a number of Rem 700s, even custom rifles. But the Savage does perform.


    .395 Family Member
    DRSS, po' boy member
    Political correctness is nothing but liberal enforced censorship
     
    Posts: 3490 | Location: Colorado Springs, CO | Registered: 04 April 2003Reply With Quote
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    posted Hide Post
    I customize a few rifles every year. I grew up a Remington man. In fact I own over 27 model 700s and/or model 7s. The two of the last 3 rifles I bought personally were Savages, the other was a Kimber. I have serious reservations that I will ever buy another Remington. Both Savages were bought just for the actions, they have been trued, lapped, timed, had aftermarket triggers, stocks and barrels put on them. Both will shoot between .250 and .500 from 100 yards to 1000 yards. Yes, they may be ugly but they shoot on a blue collar budget. Ron Colburn, Savage CEO has done a great deal to improve the quality, function and looks of his Savage firearms. In my personal opinion Savage has done more in the way of inovation for the working rifle. If you look at the factory class rifles, and competing today the Savage is now taking the market share. I can only see this continuing. Remington has failed with the 788, 710, to produce a low end rifle that can compete with the Savage. The 798 and 799 that I have seen have a horrible metal to wood fit and finish. The 700s are not of the same quality as they were 20 years ago. There are so many Remington clones out there that are trued from the get go because they are CNC manufactured. If Remington was truly smart they would have Jerry Stiller, Jim Borden, or Barney Lawton bid to make their 700s for them.

    Again I see Savage moving forward with their product line. They can only get better.

    Longshot
     
    Posts: 322 | Location: Youngsville, NC | Registered: 23 April 2004Reply With Quote
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    Picture of Westpac
    posted Hide Post
    quote:
    Originally posted by prof242:
    That Striker is going after 1,000 yd PDs!.


    Let us know how it goes... Big Grin


    _______________________________________________________________________________
    This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life.
     
    Posts: 3171 | Location: SLC, Utah | Registered: 23 February 2007Reply With Quote
    one of us
    Picture of dempsey
    posted Hide Post
    quote:
    The finding some rear bedding area is challenge.The rear guard screw is wood screw.


    I float the tang area and bed where the actual rear guard screw is. It seems to work fine.


    ______________________
    Always remember you're
    unique, just like everyone else.

     
    Posts: 6205 | Location: Cascade, MT | Registered: 12 February 2002Reply With Quote
    one of us
    posted Hide Post
    quote:
    Originally posted by Bill Soverns:
    Leave it to you Berger! LMFAO!!!!! animal


    ditto..... jumping


    blaming guns for crime is like blaming silverware for rosie o'donnell being fat
     
    Posts: 1213 | Location: new braunfels, tx | Registered: 04 December 2001Reply With Quote
    one of us
    posted Hide Post
    All the ones ( 6 or so) I have around will not feed worth a dam. The extractors are weak leaving many a case in a some what dirty chamber.

    Other then that they shoot some mighty small groups and make great varmit rifles.

    I wouldn't use one on big game.
     
    Posts: 19396 | Location: wis | Registered: 21 April 2001Reply With Quote
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    Picture of bartsche
    posted Hide Post
    quote:
    Originally posted by p dog shooter:
    All the ones ( 6 or so) I have around will not feed worth a dam. The extractors are weak leaving many a case in a some what dirty chamber.

    Other then that they shoot some mighty small groups and make great varmit rifles.

    I wouldn't use one on big game.


    WinkYou may have a poit there PDS. beerroger


    Old age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone..
     
    Posts: 10226 | Location: Temple City CA | Registered: 29 April 2003Reply With Quote
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