Nitroman,
1. The stripper clip is the small piece of metal that holds the rounds together. It is discarded after the rounds are loaded and were rarely used outside the military.

2. You surface grind the front ring and the rear ring, not to remove any identifying marks but to provide a good and true base for your scope mounts. If someone does not want a scope on the rifle you do not do it. Those identifying marks on the side of the rifle are left as is and if fact they can not be "surface ground", at least not with a conventional wheel but there is also no need to do it.

I know this is anal, but I have some 1909 Argentine Mausers with very good crests on them. I'd like to drill and tap for scope bases, but preserve the crests. I can move the front hole forward enough to clear the crest, but the back hole will invade the recoil lug if I move it back far enough to avoid the crest.

I'm really not a fan of the "scout scope". Any other suggestions welcome!

Thanks,

Griffin & Howe side mount.

Expensive, and not everyone's cup of tea.....but it would solve your problem. Zero holes drilled on the receiver front ring.

GV

I have seen some cantilevered scope bases for military 98's that do not require drilling the receiver. Don't know how well they work, but they have got to be better than a side-mount. I'll post details when I get to the room tonight.

Grandview,

I should have added money to the mix!

Thanks for the idea, though.

www.newenglandcustomguns.com and look at the EAW side mount. More elegant and less obtrusive than the G&H for about $345.00. Also you can get a WWII German sliderail mount from a guy in Germany for roughly $450.00.

The crests are worth preserving and the side mounts increase the utility of the rifle. Also the resale.

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll go look.

(But that's awful rich for my wallet.)

Too bad all the good answers cost money!

The hidden pearl in this mystery is the Jaeger side mount. They are still available new from NECG for less than the G&H, but you can often find them at gunshows or on e-bay for around $100. They are extremely high in quality but have a very low profile with the scope removed. Here is one on my Brno 22f in 7x64.

When I look at all these sidemounts I wonder if they'll stand up to 35 Whelen recoil levels. It sure seems to be a short distance between the screws...

Thanks for the ideas!

A properly installed side mount actually has more surface to surface contact than most top mounts. They also use stronger screws than the usual 6x48 or 8x40. The .35 Whelen is pretty mild. The only complaints I have ever heard about sidemounts were on poorly installed ones used with magnum cartridges.

Kurt's correct, Don.

The biggest complaint of side mounts is aesthetic. Although G&H still sells them.....even at that price.

GV

I have a 1909 Argentine action built by DWM in Berlin. It says "Deustche Waffen etc. etc. Berlin" on the left hand side of the action. I actually like it and it would be sad to install a side mount that would mess it up and cover it up.

Maybe try some old style mauser claw mounts that have the front mount dove-tailed into the barrel just ahead of the action. The only problem is that most of these that I have seen have the front ring around the objective bell of the scope. A bit goofy looking to me, but common on older European mausers. This system will also solve your probelm, however, I bet it is quite expensive.

Tim

This fellow makes scout mounts for collectors and sells them on this board

http://pub113.ezboard.com/fparallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforumsfrm85.showMessage?topicID=133.topic

They have all brass mounting hardware so they'll not damage the finish on the rifle. He does not list a Mauser but I know he has made them in the past. I have one of the mounts for a Russian m44 and it is very nicely done. You can always ask.

Thanks for all the suggestions.

Maybe I can live with a hole in the crest!

I really like a solid and simple scope mount and want full and easy access to the loading port. It seems I want to have my cake and eat it, too!

Why don't you leave the DWM on the siderail and surface grind the front ring. Then you won't have to look at a scarred crest. Looks better that way, IHMO. A crest with holes looks amatuerish to me. Or better yet and hopefully not as offensive it looks hurried, ugly, or imcomplete.

I guess I could always surface grind it after I drill and tap, if it offends me too much.

Thanks for all the suggestions. I think I'll just try for the least offensive hole positions and let it go. That'll still require custom bases, but they should be easily fabbed.

Thanks again,

All my 1909s have the bases silver soldered with no holes

All my 1909s have the bases silver soldered with no holes, it covers the crests but can be removed without holes if you want.

What does it take to clean silver solder off of iron?

Have you ever taken the bases off? What does it look like?

Thanks,

2 possibilities come to my mind.

First, use a target peep sight and forget the scope. You lose the magnification, but accuracy with some practice is as good or better than the rifle.

Second, and I have never seen or heard of this done, but it seems like it would work to me, is to clamp a pistol type scope on the barrel. You gain the magnification and accuracy of the scope, nothing to drill, mounts should be easy to fabricate.... Just a thought....

I agree with z1r, I am having a .404 built on a 1909 and I will get rid of the crest but keep the writing on the side which for me adds to the appeal more than the crest.

Will someone please point out or explain what a crest is?

I like the silver solder idea though.

Brent it is the insignia that is rolled into the front ring of the action. It has the strange power to make people feel that it has to be preserved. There is something supposedly sacriligous about drilling and taping through it. It has to be left as is, unless of course you grind it off(surface grind)and then it is okay.

As Chic stated....

This is an example of the crest Don would like to preserve.

GV

Brent,

Just FYI, it was supposedly illegal to export the weapons as surplus with the crest intact, so most are at least partially "wiped".

It was once considered a faux pas to keep the crest on a custom rifle, as it clearly identified it as a surplus action. We liked to think that all custom rifles were built on original commercial Oberndorf actions.

Today, as pristine surplus actions are getting scarce, we try to preserve ties to the past. There is something noble it that.

I will go to great lengths to preserve any marking that reflects the original manufacturer. The Mauser banner, Czech rampant lion and FN Belgium logo are examples. Crests that were imprinted at the request of a second party government hold no particular value, sedimental or monetary, unless you are trying to preserve the entire rifle. I would keep the crest on a Mexican mauser that was made in Mexico, but I wouldn't keep the crest on a Mexican mauser made in Europe.

Obviously, the commercial crests by Mauser, Brno, FN and Mannlicher-Schoenauer should be kept as original as possible. They represent a period of quality and pride that we will never again see in the firearms industry.

No No No You have to use a belt sander and a dremel Moto tool to do it right

"Brent,

Just FYI, it was supposedly illegal to export the weapons as surplus with the crest intact, so most are at least partially "wiped". "

Unknown where that idea came from, maybe the m91 Argies? All crest that have been removed have been done by owners.

I find it humorous when people proudly declare they have some fantastic action, then list all the goodies they'll do to it, or some custom 'smith declares "this rifle has...". There are two endemic characteristics necessary for a custom rifle being built here in the U.S.:

1. have the stripper clips removed.
2. Surface grind to remove all identifying marks.

The question is why the hell does any "custom smith" bother to declare the vintage of action when it could just as well be some shitty Chinese casting? Once all the "custom smith" shit is done you won't be able to tell any difference between actions.

Nitroman,

The original surplus/export contract for 1909 Argentines had a clause that said all crests must be ground off before export.

From the small sampling I've seen about 1/2 of them have had the crest partially wiped or mostly removed. These were complete surplus rifles and barrelled actions that had not yet seen a gunsmith or private owner. I do not know if this percentage holds up "in the old days", as I didn't start fooling around with 1909s until 1998 or so.

I have not seen many 1909s with pristine crests, but I am sure they are not "rare". I never claimed they are rare - never claimed they were special to anyone but me.

Why don't you go play with yourself? You obviously don't play well with others.

Glen71, that is unfortunate. I have thought about it before just in the realm of cleaning up the area. My surface grinder will not do it without using a very small wheel, that is why I added that. You grind longitudinally and do gring that off you would end up hitting the front ring. I have on occasion hit the front ring when grinding the rear. It is called not paying attention.

Don G,



Like I said, don't know where you got that. Only crests I have seen removed are on m91 Argies. Never seen one removed on m1909 or any other South American or European Mauser variant unless owner, or in the case of Baltic States, a gubbermint did it, specifically the scrubbed VZ-24's and only a few of those.



I suggest you cruise the auction boards a bit.



Here is the URL for an FN with G&H mount.



http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=5545813



Quite substantial, not only held on with screws, two locator pins too. Side mounts will not lower the resale value of a piece, they will only increase the value. There are several styles available. New England Custom Guns' EAW side mount is by far the most elegant I have seen. G&H is kind of bulky but you could contour the metal quite pleasingly. A fellow in Germany makes exact reproduction WWII German k(* sniper mounts, both long and short rail and turret. The short rail are soldered to the side of the rear military sight and very well done. All of these "systems" increase the utility aspect too, you can use both irons and glass sights. Figure on spending a minimum of $345.00 for the EAW and $450.00 for the repro sniper units. G&H falls in between. None of the above even begins to speak of the visually appealing look of a quality, well mounted side mount. How many have you seen? I have seen one in person, and it is on my 8x60S, I am waiting to see if the rings I bought from Kebco fit.



As for resale should you ever choose to sell, holes in the crest will reduce it instanlty to less than half its present worth. An excellent condition m1909 begins at $300.00 and goes up to $800.00 from what I have seen. If the receiver is in the white, it hasn't been re-arsenaled and those begin at $450.00 and go up.



Your choice. Anybody can bubba, but can you bubba good?