Any duplicators/stock companies have a a good M98 sporter stock pattern with a prince of wales grip?

I've been asked to delete this by dpcd. Unfortunately he failed to inform me it was proprietary or ask me not to share this information when he referred me to the vendor who shall not be named again.

thank you!

Ok, that is my pattern and they won't make you a stock. That pattern was not cheap to make. I tried to get this post deleted; it is not valid.

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Originally posted by dpcd:
Ok, that is my pattern and they won't make you a stock. That pattern was not cheap to make. I tried to get this post deleted; it is not valid.

Why not ?

quote:

Originally posted by Austin Hunter:
Any duplicators/stock companies have a a good M98 sporter stock pattern with a prince of wales grip?

I got a duplicator pal that has a POW grip pattern. Good guy unlike some.

It is not uncommon for folks that decide to get into the duplicating business to copy, without permission, stocks sent to them to duplicate. Had a member here do that to me.

quote:

It is not uncommon for folks that decide to get into the duplicating business to copy, without permission, stocks sent to them to duplicate. Had a member here do that to me.

Did the stock have a patent on it or a copy right.

Seems just like a small change would void any of that.

Look, I spent a lot of time on that pattern. It resides there because they do stocks for me, but they won't make them for anyone else without my permission. Same with the Rigby/POW barrel patterns I made and are now in the Douglas CNC lathe. Not for public use.
If someone asks me, I will let them use it, for a fee. It's not public property.
Don't like the way I handle MY property? Go somewhere else. I see I've been too nice.....

If memory serves me, Chuck Grace has his on pattern for the 98 Mauser with a Prince of Wales grip. Worth a call to check it out and this would not infringe on anyone else's pattern. Hope it works out...

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

Did the stock have a patent on it or a copy right.

Seems just like a small change would void any of that.

What a ill-bred comment.
dpcd's pattern had Copyright protection the minute he finished regardless of if he applied for it OR NOT. Just because it may be common practice to rip someone's pattern doesn't make it legitimate. Those that can't understand this must have a head full of gleet.

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:

a head full of gleet.

Perhaps times have changed, but my experience is that many don't know what a Prince Of Wales grip is.

Great post James Anderson. My experience is that "rippers" are the overwhelming majority of duplicator owners, and their customers are often aware of it and facilitate/support it. The situation is getting worse, not better, down here in Oz. I hope it's better in other countries.

I'm officially asking the Moderator to DELETE this entire shit storm of a thread.

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

Did the stock have a patent on it or a copy right.

Seems just like a small change would void any of that.

What a ill-bred comment.
dpcd's pattern had Copyright protection the minute he finished regardless of if he applied for it OR NOT. Just because it may be common practice to rip someone's pattern doesn't make it legitimate. Those that can't understand this must have a head full of gleet.

Doesn't appear copy right would be the proper protection U.S. Copyright Office Copyright Basics What Is Copyright? Copyright is a form of protection provided by the laws of the United States (title 17, U. S. Code) to the authors of “original works of authorship,” including literary, dramatic, musical, artistic, and certain other intellectual works. This protection is available to both published and unpublished works. To receive the complete pdf download of the Copyright Basics information, courtesy of the U.S. Copyright Office, please click this link: http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ01.pdf To find out more information on the U.S. Copyright Office, please click here. Literary Works A literary work is a work that explains, describes, or narrates a particular subject, theme, or idea through the use of narrative, descriptive, or explanatory text, rather than dialog or dramatic action. Generally, literary works are intended to be read; they are not intended to be performed before an audience.


To find out more information on the U.S. Copyright Office, please click here.

Literary Works

A literary work is a work that explains, describes, or narrates a particular subject, theme, or idea through the use of narrative, descriptive, or explanatory text, rather than dialog or dramatic action. Generally, literary works are intended to be read; they are not intended to be performed before an audience.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
I'm officially asking the Moderator to DELETE this entire shit storm of a thread.

I don't see it as a shit storm, I see it as educating.

I never actually seen a "Original" stock pattern.

Some guy named Bubba gets his posted all over the internet.

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Originally posted by richj:
I never actually seen a "Original" stock pattern.

You've got a MiniX I built using a pattern I created from a blank.

Interesting and very educational. Knowledge is power.

A stock pattern primer:

https://www.westleyrichards.co...ptions-for-shotguns/

Anyone could produce that type grip and have no clue about the POW nomenclature.

OK, I was thinking of bishop, fajen, GAG, Richards, Boyds and even the plastic guys.

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:

quote:

Originally posted by richj:
I never actually seen a "Original" stock pattern.

You've got a MiniX I built using a pattern I created from a blank.

quote:

Originally posted by Bobster:
A stock pattern primer:

https://www.westleyrichards.co...ptions-for-shotguns/

Well from this, looks like I want a Semi Pistol or Rounded Grip

Unfortunately this one is not at home :

Small Ring Kar98a

very nice - perfect!

I have a sporter 8x57 made in Germany in the 1930s that is very similar. I thought of copying it, but the stock drops a bit much for me. I may just take one of my donor 98 stocks and build it up the way I want and then duplicate.

Here's a pic of the rifle. Strange schnabel shape.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/zuTb2mrE5Z8ZZ281A

AH Sent you a PM.

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ply

What a crock of manure! Those old original patterns are a dime a dozen, and most stylist have several of them..

If you need a pattern stock I will lend you one. I have several take offs and some pattern stocks, it fact Dennis Olson has one or two of my pattern P of W design, its not a rocket science design or black magic, get one a tad over size and cut it to suit yourself like any custom stock!!

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Originally posted by Atkinson:
...its not a rocket science design or black magic, get one a tad over size and cut it to suit yourself like any custom stock!!

Agreed. Not sure what all this fuss is about, but there's nothing particularly proprietary or difficult about the shape of a POW grip. Look at some pictures you like, grab a good file and spend 30 minutes or so removing wood that doesn't look like the pictures. Test fit with your hand, sand and finish. Done.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:

quote:

ply

What a crock of manure! Those old original patterns are a dime a dozen, and most stylist have several of them..

If you need a pattern stock I will lend you one. I have several take offs and some pattern stocks, it fact Dennis Olson has one or two of my pattern P of W design, its not a rocket science design or black magic, get one a tad over size and cut it to suit yourself like any custom stock!!

I used Denis to do metal work/barreled actions on 3 rifles about 9 year ago. He did a bang up job.

And I need some metal work done now, in addition to the stock. Maybe I will just have him do everything.

Thank you!

You'd best get a letter of permission from the Prince of Wales first before proceding.

Exactly. I actually got hate mail asking me if I am paying royalties to the Rigby company. In fact, I am planning to build a time machine to go back to 1908 and pay John Rigby personally.

I feel like I should be collecting the fee for the English stocks designed before 1900. I am the oldest known person from the 1750's that slipped into the northern part of the Un-United States as a family. The flat side stocks made by the German Gunsmiths should be considered also as they are part of my family also. Most of this stockmaking crap has been made by someone in the past.

A lot of us older gunsmiths have been making similar stocks as the group here is trying to call their own designs. What a joke!!!!

I have written articles on several things that are done in a gun shop. Most of the info has to do with the beginner needing more information. The DVD's have about 2.30 Gbs written and video's show how to make tools and do gunsmithing. I made a duplicator to speed up making a stock for our shop only and not to cut other patterns for someone else. The figure of some stocks make it very hard to cut when a hammer and chisel are the only tools you may have.

Some of the members on AR believe they have the only right to have a stock design and try to enforce their claim. Why don't these people show the stock that they have made for all to judge. A lot of these people belong to the ACCG. I didn't need to spend $1000 dollars to go to a meeting to pat each other on the back to tell them how good they were in making stocks. Your pictures and words on this site speaks for your craftsmanship.

Spot on Lester, I personally go back to the 1800s Im thinking!! I don;t know of a gunmaker that can;t make a POW stock, extended grip, two panel's, short forearm to a Schnable, checkering on the grip, no checkering on the forearm, steel slightly curved butt plate...Owner allowed to add or subtract as to his personal preferences!!

Ohm left out the option of an egg cheek piece!

Do you guys think it is acceptable to take a Bev Doolittle or Terry Redlin painting, put it in a COPY machine, then sell the copies on flea-bay?

I don't.

What's the difference to taking someone's pattern without permission and putting it in a duplicator?

Nada

The artists above have a certain style. If other artists create ORIGINAL art in a similar style, there's nothing wrong with that. This kind of monkey see monkey do has fueled new talent in the art world for generations. As their talent grows, they put their own flavor into their work. Never expecting someone putting their work in a copy machine and ripping it.

Do you guys think it's acceptable to take a smoke pull of engraving and find the lowest bidder to engrave it on your gun? You should start a thread on an engraving forum. I'm not so sure that would go over well. I am sure you would find someone willing to do it. Well.. behind the scenes via private message.

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Originally posted by gunmaker:
Do you guys think it's acceptable to take a smoke pull of engraving and find the lowest bidder to engrave it on your gun? .....

Gee,,that's never been done before.

The usual method is to just take the centerfold magazine glamour shot pictures of the engraved gun that they like to their fav engraver and say 'Engrave mine like this one.'

quote:

Originally posted by gunmaker:
Do you guys think it is acceptable to take a Bev Doolittle or Terry Redlin painting, put it in a COPY machine, then sell the copies on flea-bay?

I don't.

What's the difference to taking someone's pattern without permission and putting it in a duplicator?

Nada

Both actions are wrong, but both being wrong doesn’t mean there’s no difference:

One is directly copying an original work of art for profit, the other is borrowing a tool without asking or paying to use it. (Yes, a stock pattern is not an original work of art, it is a manufacturing tool to aid in more efficient and consistent reproduction of an object. Functionally equivalent to a jig.)

If you are a skilled stock maker whose ego has been stroked by being called an “artist”, please take a deep breath and let’s review a couple terms:

ARTIST – Someone who creates an original piece of art for the sole purpose of expressing themselves, with the intent of eliciting emotion in the observer. The artist may choose to work primarily in a specific medium, but is not limited. There is generally no practical purpose for the object that is produced.

CRAFTSMAN – Someone who skillfully handcrafts practical objects that have a specific purpose. They generally specialize in a certain medium.

If you consider yourself an artist then put on your beret, go to the coffee shop downtown and share the deepest feelings of your tortured soul by reading poetry on open mic night. I’m a craftsman who takes pride in carving wood into very nice looking, but practical objects for harvesting meat. I would never borrow another man’s tools without asking, but I shamelessly attempt to copy a certain style originating in the 20th century and seen over, and over, (and over again...) in photos in books, on high end custom riflesmith websites, and forums like this.

You all do it too...

Some of us have small signature flairs we like to put into our work, but nobody alive today can lay claim to creating the basic style that 90% + of custom wood stocked rifles emulate. Nobody has a patent, or the market cornered on a 13.75" LOP, pancake cheekpiece, ebony tip, or 24 LPI point checkering pattern. We all make stocks with these and other features.

We are not artists, we are craftsmen. Let's not try to equate the two.

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Originally posted by montea6b:
We are not artists, we are craftsmen.

Speak for yourself.


functional art that goes boom and coughs lead in the air (quote from a fellow artist Stu)
IMG_2825sharpyoutube by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/159217860@N04/]

That is an absolutely beautiful rifle! However, beauty and an extraordinarily high quality of workmanship doesn't mean something is an original work of art. Unless you can point to something original about the stock in this photo you are actually making my point for me. (Because that matches perfectly the exact style I'm referring to above!!!)

You are free to call yourself an artist if it helps you feel better. "Craftsman" isn't meant as an insult, I'm just offering a standard definition of terms here. Take up your argument with Oxford and Webster if you don't want to hear it from me...

P.S. Personally, I have more respect for skilled craftsman than many artists. Considering that you can put a crucifix in a glass of urine and be called an "artist" there really isn't any prestige in the title.

quote:

Originally posted by montea6b:
(Yes, a stock pattern is not an original work of art,.......)

The Copyright office doesn't agree with your opinion. Not that you care. Have you spoken with the Copyright Office? I have.

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nobody alive today can lay claim to creating the basic style that 90% + of custom wood stocked rifles emulate.

This is out of left field. Nobody is making that claim. You seem to be stuck in the mindset that a custom rifle is just a list of options. It's so much more than that, well... at least it can be.

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Originally posted by gunmaker:
So.... using your "logic" Mcmillan could sell Legend stocks bypassing any $ for DArcy, cause no contract could hold up in court due to your "fact" that stock design can't be protected. Anyone could just buy a Legend stock and send it to a fiberglass stock company and have a mould made and sell them as well.
Right???
I think NOT.