Sorry, but first I've got to gloat a little. I've been considering a Left Handed Model 70 in .300 WM for a while. There's a Gander Mountain up in PA where my folks have a place, and I gave them a call a month ago. They had a LH model 70 in .300wm for $590. A good deal. I finally decided to make the drive up last weekend and see my folks. Gander Mountain's having an inventory clearance, and the gun has been sitting for a long time. They gave me the rifle for $297.99. Couldn't believe it. And the scope mounted up straight. Barrel is straight. Great gun at a great price. End gloat.

It's from the older run of LH guns. The extractor is black. I believe those were MIM extractors. I can't remember: what was the problem with those? Strength? How can I verify for sure before replacing it? I anticipate getting the Williams replacement if necessary. Haven't swapped one yet. Any comments on how easy/hard it is?

Okay, next are the sights. I have a set of dual dovetail mounts from my drawer on it now. They look great and are very strong. But there's no easy backup for a broken scope. I'll likely replace the dual dovetails with QR mounts. I mostly like iron sight backups (though I do like the looks of the clean barrel). Anybody have a recommendation of specific sights for this setup?

I can't wait to get out to shoot this thing.

Thanks,

Steve

Congrats on getting that LH rifle at a good price. I read that it's not easy to find LH guns.

As to the need for irons I would rather have another scope ready for a 300 mag. After all its a long range gun and they want scopes. So forget the irons.

I prefer rings that use Weaver style bases. This opens up many options.

Savage99,

Thanks for the advice. You're probably right. I'm thinking about the Weaver style QR Leupold mounts, with standard Weaver style rings.

Leupold confirmed they'd work. They'd be easy to remove and replace the scope without having levers to get caught up in brush, vines, etc. Plus I could stick on a front sight and carry the NECG peep if I ever get homesick for irons later.

Steve

I would contact http://www.williamsfirearms.com. He makes parts for Winchester including a good extractor rather than the cheap one that Winchester supplied. I don't know why Winchester goes out of its way to cheapen the M70. They know what parts work yet they waste engineering time trying to save a penny here and there. Make the gun the right way and charge accordingly! Who wants a cheapened M70???

He posts on these forums, maybe he will see your post and contact you. He makes high quality parts out here in the boonies of Central Oregon.

Thanks Old Elk Hunter.

I'll try to send him a PM, or an e-mail from his website, if he doesn't come across this thread.

I also need to order two more of Jim Wisner's magazine springs.

Steve

Steve

Those MIM extractors are junk. When they bend they STAY bent. A proper, milled, spring-steel extractor is surely what you need, alright. Jim Wisner makes possible the best aftermarket extractors available.

I'll warn you that installing these extractors is not usually a drop-in proposition. They have to be fitted, and they have to be properly gapped, so you'll need a qualified gunsmith to get things right..........

AD

Thanks, Allen. I've got to get the spring from Jim anyway. Should have looked to check on the availability of the extractors at the same time.

How are the Echols rifles setup for sights? I seem to remember they're a semi-permanent scope mount? Maybe that was the David Miller rifles, though. Anyway, I'd be interested in knowing how the best smiths set up their rifles and the thinking behind it.

Also, do they set up the heavy calibers the same way?

Thanks,

Steve

Steve, Echols installs his own fixed scopemounts to his 'glass-stocked custom rifles. These are of milled-steel construction, and the lower ring halves and the bases are of one-piece construction. The top halves of the rings are secured to the base with four screws each, front and back, and the base is attached to the receiver with two 8x40 screws up front and three in the back. This is the most solid setup I've ever seen, offers the most lattitude for individual scope adjustment, and it's the cleanest looking scope system ever.

But the receiver gets totally blueprinted first, and the existing scopemounting holes are redrilled and the new holes are in perfect alinement with the vertical axis of the bore. The rings get sized to the exact diameter of the scope being installed. This system is so precise that once I installed a backup scope that had it's adjustments perfectly centered, and the rifle ended up only ONE 1/4" click from perfect windage zero at 100 yds.

Now THAT'S precise!

AD

Thanks, Allen.

Steve

quote:

I'll warn you that installing these extractors is not usually a drop-in proposition. They have to be fitted, and they have to be properly gapped, so you'll need a qualified gunsmith to get things right..........

AD

Our extractors are a true drop-in, and don't require any fitting or gunsmithing......They are of course the only ones that fit into that category.

As time goes on, less and less new model 70's will have the mim'd extractors, as they've adopted our machined extractors for all of their production rifles. Still; we're talking about a lot of rifles, around a few hundred thousand out there that have the MIM'd extractors.

The quickest and easiest way to determine which one you have is to look at the nose of the extractor; if it has 1 or 2 hash marks on the nose, it's a cast part. The other method is to look at the underside of the extractor, once it's been removed from the bolt, and see whether or not it has the following markings; M-R, M-L, S-R, or S-L.....These are our markings only and won't be found on a casted extractor.

For your extractor to be a uniformly drop-in part that worked perfectly 100% of the time with no tweeking, no adjustment, then EVERY single Model 70 bolt would have to have the exact-same dimensions. From what I've seen and measured for myself, these units are anything but uniform........

AD

quote:

Originally posted by allen day:
For your extractor to be a uniformly drop-in part that worked perfectly 100% of the time with no tweeking, no adjustment, then EVERY single Model 70 bolt would have to have the exact-same dimensions. From what I've seen and measured for myself, these units are anything but uniform........

AD

Well, we've sold a great deal of them in the last nearly two years without a single customer indicating that they had any problems with the part whatsoever....In fact, in nearly every case, they noted that the feeding of the cartridges improved, as well as extraction, and improved ejection.

To my knowledge, not one of my customers has had to have any gunsmithing done to their rifles for these to fit and function far better than the factory extractor.

In my book......That's a drop-in.

These customers include D'arcy Echols and Mark Penrod to name a couple I know you speak highly of.

The biggest difference between our extractor and Jim Wisner's is that his extractor is about a .500" longer than ours. Our extractor is longer than the factory MIM extractor and long enough to be used in the magnum receivers that Winchester manufactures. However, if you modify the receiver in the rear of the bridge to the extent that D'arcy Echols is doing on his legend rifles, they do come up short.
The theory is, as I'm sure you're aware of; is that the cartridges are easier to load into the magazine with that additional material removed from the rear bridge. I wouldn't say that it doesn't have some merit, but not something I would definitely say I "needed". JMO of course.

Now I am really confused.

Both of mine have no hash marks, and no inside marks.

Williams makes some absolutely fabulous replacement parts and are in my lowly opionion almost a necessity for any serious hunting rifle. They sell reasonably priced parts that improve the looks and function of any gun and anyone should consider their products before buying something else. However, the extractors usually do need some tweaking to work to absolute perfection. This is getting extremely nitpicky and I'm sure they'll work without it, but at least according to one of the names Matt listed they still need to be adjusted (I was there when he said it) to be perfect. Do not take this as a criticism. In the world of the finest custom rifles parts must be indiviually fitted. Again, I would never hesitate to do business with Williams.

Ralphie, I agree. That's exactly my same position.

I suspect that there's more vaiance between Model 70 receivers than there is Williams extractors, but nevertheless, those variances must be accounted for.........

AD

quote:

Originally posted by allen day:
Ralphie, I agree. That's exactly my same position.

I suspect that there's more vaiance between Model 70 receivers than there is Williams extractors, but nevertheless, those variances must be accounted for.........

AD

Variances do not need to be eliminated if care in design is taken to make sure the whole assembly functions properly at either extremes of the tolerance budget.

Should I go on, or would you like to teach class on geometric dimensioning and tolerancing?

I'll second the Williams extractor as the way to go. Bought a couple of LH M70 Mag ones [don't want that investment cast thing even as a spare] from Matt early this year. Nice bit of machining.

Fitted one of them [all of a 2 minute job - slowest part was finding the safe key], and it has worked perfectly. Matt's great to deal with, too.

Mine didn't need it, but any fitting work required would be quite minor, I suspect.

HP, oh man, I could sure relate some stories about engineering specs that didn't prove out in the end analysis, but I don't talk shop on these forums........

I'm no riflesmith, but I surely do know some good ones, and I do have a few rifles built by same. I've never yet heard of a Mauser-type extractor yet that didn't need some adjustment, and EVERY top riflesmith I've ever discussed this with will testify that this is true. And this is the same reason why Mauser 98s were serial numbered to the bolt -- the extractors were carefully fitted to the exact, specific bolt. And that's also a reason why certain Mauser 98s don't feed well; they get cobbled up from mismatched parts.

If you take a bolt that is out of spec -- let's say the bolt face isn't square -- and you install a new extractor, you can expect some problems. Then if you remachine the bolt face to square it, you'll also have to adjust the extractor to get the gap right, etc. If the extractor groove in the bolt body is out of spec, you can also have problems. One size just doesn't fit all, at least if you want a perfect fit.

Now if you don't mind that the extractor won't hold the cartridge in position properly without the cartridge falling out on its own accord, or possibly the cartridge won't slip up between the bolt face and the extractor every time, etc., etc., etc., then OK.........

AD

As I mentioned earlier, I've yet to have a single customer who found the installation of our extractor anything but a significant improvement over the factory unit.....No special tools, no gunsmithing, just a quick and easy improvement.

Trying to compare what we are manufacturing to the Mauser 98 extractors is like comparing apples and oranges Allen.....99% of what is critcal on our extractor that determines how well it fits and functions is machined in a single setup on our CNC mills..Every part is inspected in our mill before they're ever removed from the fixtures. Average deviation on our SPC system indicates that the differences in the critical areas vary less than .0005" from part to part.

While Winchester is not noted for holding high tolerances on their actions, or any other major manufacturer for that matter, the bolt dimensions that are critical in the function of the extractor are held extremely close. Why they are able to hold that dimension so close isn't too big a mystery when you look at it from a machining standpoint, but why they don't get the rest of it right all the time is still a mystery.
Given the technology that is out there today, there's no excuse for the poor finishes that are commonly seen on the locking abutments either, but they never fail to break out the cold chisel every day to accomplish the task.

There's no doubt that each and every bolt will be slightly different from the next, but after hundreds of aftermarket extractors sold and tens of thousands of factory extractors sold, I've yet to hear of a problem with them at all. Everyone of my customers has indicated that the extraction was more positive....The feeding was truely controlled, keeping the cartridge securely under the extractor, and the ejection was much more positive. All of this without any gunsmithing necessary.....That's is as close to drop-in as one can hope for.

Mark Penrod for one, orders our extractors in finished versions; either in matte or polished blued. If there was any fitting to do, he would have been getting them in-the-white.

If any of our customers ever have any problems whatsoever with the installation of these extractors, we will either refund their money, with shipping, or replace it. If that doesn't cure the problem, we will inspect and correct the problem here at no charge.

Matt, I have one of your extractors that I intended to use for backup purposes to a Wisner long extractor. The Wisner has been setup for a particular rifle and required fitting. And while things are close, your extractor is not gapped properly preventing the cartridge from comming under the extractor at the corect instant. It needs a little work. Which I have zero problems with, and am happy to have the work done.

I've also noticed some factory rifles with Williams extractors bent in a "V". Obviously a band aid cure to, once again, a fit problem. "Everyone" of your customers is a little much to swallow.

Allen, you have a pm.

Chuck

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:
Matt, I have one of your extractors that I intended to use for backup purposes to a Wisner long extractor. The Wisner has been setup for a particular rifle and required fitting. And while things are close, your extractor is not gapped properly preventing the cartridge from comming under the extractor at the corect instant. It needs a little work. Which I have zero problems with, and am happy to have the work done.

I've also noticed some factory rifles with Williams extractors bent in a "V". Obviously a band aid cure to, once again, a fit problem. "Everyone" of your customers is a little much to swallow.

Allen, you have a pm.

Chuck

Chuck, I'm sorry if you experienced problems with the extractor, however it appears that you were fitting this to an altered bolt....Am I incorrect in that asessment?? This was also something that had not been brought to my attention until now, which was the point I was making about the fact that I was not aware of any of our customers having problems with them.

As far as the factory extractors being bent into a "v", I'm a little unclear as to what you mean by that, but we have no control over the assembly that takes place at USRAC. They had been using a tensioning fixture for bending the MIM'd parts for sometime, but we had been informed that because we were sending the extractors to them pretensioned, it was an operation that had been discontinued.

One other thing to consider is whether or not it was infact our part on their rifle that you were looking at. Even after we began manufacturing the extractor for them, they continued to use old inventory to ship parts with, so that they could get them out of the system.

Matt, an apology is not necessary and bolt face improvements may be to blame. This part is definately machined very well.

Yes, it was one of your extractors on the factory 70's I was referring to. Your extractor is pretty easy to spot. They looked like they were bent about mid stride with a vice.

Chuck

quote:

Originally posted by Chuck Nelson:
Matt, an apology is not necessary and bolt face improvements may be to blame. This part is definately machined very well.

Yes, it was one of your extractors on the factory 70's I was referring to. Your extractor is pretty easy to spot. They looked like they were bent about mid stride with a vice.

Chuck

Well, I can't put anything past those guys, considering they were assembling roll pins in trigger guards with a hammer and using hot glue for a bedding compound.....

They never cease to amaze me.......

Actually, a case in point was an email that I received today from them.

We shipped them some short-action stainless bottom metal assemblies for their super grade line that were fully assembled and bead-blasted. During the assembly process, all of our parts get a heavy dosage of Rem Oil for lubrication and rust prevention.
The email indicated today that we needed to be sure and oil the parts because there were some fingerprints on one of them. Of course they said that they would clean and oil the parts at no charge.....LOL

I guess the normal course of action there is to have parts shipped from one end of the United States to the other and not bother to oil the parts prior to being assembled onto the rifles.

I suppose you fellas would have to see the folks actually putting this stuff together to fully appreciate the magnitude of the situation.....The closest they've been to shooting firearms is when there's a drive-by in the neighborhood.....Which does happen on a fairly regular basis.
Nobody hunts, shoots, gunsmiths, or even lives within 200 miles of trees.....It's an odd enviornment, to say the least.