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I'm looking for a vice for my Rockwell 21-100 Vertical Mill. The table is 6-1/2"x24", and has 3 T-slots, on 2" centers. Looking for something American made, if at all possible, as I'm not a fan of Asian knockoff's. Will be using it for home gunsmithing projects. Thought maybe one of you 'smiths might have a smaller vise laying around, after you got a Bridgeport? Anyone have any experience with Bison vises, out of Poland? Any advice, will be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Jeff | ||
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This is the one I use. http://kurtworkholding.com/man...ise-p-1203-l-en.html _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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Thanks Westpac. Didn't know Kurt made a vise smaller than 6"...glad to see that. Jeff | |||
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Kurt/anglelock are the top two most common vise you will find. Bison is not bad far better then the asian import junk (enco /harbor freight) Try Ebay unless you feel like chucking $600 bucks on a new one www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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I too have a Rockwell 21-100 Vertical Mill, for the past 8 years. I got it for gunsmithing. I have 6", 4", and a 3" Kurt vises. I got them all used, and the 6" was the cheapest. 6" Kurt D675 vises go for ~ 50% of new price. When you try to get a 4" Kurt in good shape on Ebay, there will be allot of bids. http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/IN...TPG=INLMPA&PMCTLG=01 The 6" Kurt is the most useful, but it has problems. It is so big that the vise base notches usually cannot be clamped down in the center slot in the table. So I clamp the notches in the front slot, which is not solid enough by itself. So a rocker clamp is used to clamp it down in the rear of the table to a non notch spot on the mill base. I often put a tool makers vise in the big Kurt vise. http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/IN...LMK3&PMITEM=428-9050 | |||
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What specifically is wrong with the Chinese vises? I have a Rong Fu mill/drill and I need a vise. I don't want to spend more on the vise than the machine is worth. | |||
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Take up smoking.  _______________________________________________________________________________ This is my rifle, there are many like it but this one is mine. My rifle is my best friend, it is my life. | |||
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Pays to shop around as prices vary Greatly !. http://desc.shop.ebay.com/item...fromZQQ_mdoZQQ_sopZ2 Funny WesPac everybody needs a vice at one time or another . What once were vices are now habits .  | |||
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I have many Kurt vises from 12" down to 6" they are a great vise as some of them in my shop are over 25 years old...These vises are easily adjusted and torn down to be Ground/In when the ocation may arise. ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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"Kurt/anglelock are the top two most common vise you will find. " ??? "What specifically is wrong with the Chinese vises?" Kurt Workholding is the name of a Mpls company that makes excellent workholding devices, including a vise utilizing a movable jaw that is pulled down, rather than just being held down as it is tightened. That concept is called Anglelock by the Kurt company. Other companies have copied the design and it is generally referred to as angle lock (two words)or positive clamp design. Anglelock is a design, not a company. Kurt also has Doublelock and other trade names. This is a mill vise for a home shop, aerospace industry accuracy is not required. Kurt and Bison are nearly equivalent and are excellent but expensive. If you are not patient with basic machine set up, and you rely on the intrinsic accuracy of your equipment, and you can afford the very best for occasional use, or you are trying to make your living with the equipment and don't have time to "futz with" things, then Kurt or Bison are great. Kurt is an excellent Minnesota company and still has parts and help for long obsolete products. The Asian clones should be thought of as a kit that can become a very, very accurate vise with a bit of work. The design advantage means they have the potential to be far better vise than any of the older non positive lock designs. They require basic dissasembly, cleaning, deburring, checking and frequently regrinding to obtain the accuracy desired and reassembly with decent hardware and new hard jaws. The screws and jaws are most often soft, and will not have the durability of a Kurt or Bison. The few I have seen/used were actually quite precise, just not as nicely machined as the Kurt (by a long shot). They would likely end up trashed in short order in a production setting. I have several US made vises, mostly from the 50's, but I use a small D30 Kurt (sadly no longer made) most of the time on my small mill. I have a 4 inch no name asian swivel vise on the 7B shaper. I am perfectly happy with the results of that vise, but I don't use it frequently, and I seldom do more than one task between set up changes. My wife has limited my other vices to an occasional beer. | |||
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Well on your machine nothing as the machine will never be as accurate as it could be. But dropping a Chinese vise on a good Bridgeport is a bad Idea Unless you first take the vise apart and grind it in parallel and square. then you'll have something. Your vise needs to be as accurate as the machine it sits on. So you are not accumulating more error. www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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Well if you are willing to settle for something that may not be accurate then fine. But It is not about having time to futz with anything. If the vise is not square and parallel you will not be making good parts and will be fighting the setup all the way. And you may have an unsafe setup as well that can cost you more then just a broke tool as most home machinists lack the skill for a proper setup and don't realize the forces that are being exerted on the part. Plain and simple if the vise is not holding the part as well as it could you may just send the part flying out of the vice. Yes I know they are expensive. but used ones can be had for cheep. And Machine tools are an investment not a hobby www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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I believe I'll hold out for a used Kurt D40. As to "what's wrong with a Chinese vise ?" Well, basically, I much prefer quality American/Euro products. Preferably one produced by the original maker. I have serious heartburn with reverse engineered commie knockoffs, and I vote with my dollars. That's why I waited and saved, to buy this US made mill, as opposed to a Grizzly/jet. My money, my decision. Jeff | |||
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You got that right! The spindle isn't perpendicular to the table and there is runout in the spindle. The machine is OK for inletting stocks and rough work or small parts. I went and talked to my machinist buddy about vises. He has several Kurt vises laying on the floor. The vise on his manual mill is one of the chinese clones. So I guess that one works good enough. I already smoke once in a while.  | |||
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if you go visit most any used machinery dealer, you'll find plenty of used vises laying around | |||
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Yep used machinery dealers want to sell tooling as well as machines and WILL DEAL !. I bought a Yuasa 8" a long time ago and it's a hell of a milling vice . Heavy with hard chrome ways . I also bought a couple of Bison Chucks for the lathe Many years back . I've yet to find any fault with those Bison from Poland however I purchased them over 20 years ago !. So I have NO IDEA as to newly manufactured stuff , as most all of my stuff came from a tool and Die makers shop when he retired . He had stuff from the 30's -80's in there . I noticed he had a Precision head stock and milling Machine set up and mostly Brown an Sharp or Starrett tools . Just a guess but mid 50's -60's seemed to dominate most of his tools . Check places like this which may be near you or have them shipped . http://www.astratool.com/tooling/attlcat.htm#2A | |||
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Sometimes you get lucky too and find a guy that has a lathe or mill and has no clue what it's worth. I picked up my lathe that way and got my mill in trade for Labor. www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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simple, Kurt | |||
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Unless your name is Boeing, the cost cutting game in machining is to buy Chinese crap shoot or or some how find overly expensive American on the used market at a discount. The subject mill is too small to take a standard 6" Kurt gracefully [the kind on every other Bridgeport], and the world is not littered with used 4" Kurts, so for years, Rockwell mill owners have asked on forums what to do for a vise. The definitive machining forums are: rec.crafts.metalworking http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/index.php http://www.practicalmachinist.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php Half of the talk on these forums is over the question of buying Chinese from Enco or buying 3rd hand high quality old beat up stuff from Ebay. ---------------------------------------------- The problem I have with Chinese vises is holding the tolerance over some area. If I put a 6" long piece in the vise and make a cut, the Kurt will maybe hold .001" or .002" over the length pf the cut. The Chinese vises would hold .005" over the length. You can test for this. Put a vise on the granite surface plate and run an indicator over it. If the mill table is to .0001", the ways are to .0001", there is .0001" of scratches and dirt on the table, the pair of parallel bars are to .0001", and now introduce a Chinese cheapee vise that is machined and not ground to .0040" out of parallel between the bed of the vise and the base of the vise, and you lost the accuracy. The expensive Kurt, OTOH, is ground very accurately to be square bed to jaw and uniform in thickness from bed to base. The sides are also very accurate for indication. | |||
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Well, I scored a swivel base for a Kurt D40 on ebay, so I'm pretty much committed to finding a decent D40 for my mill. I know, about as bright as buying dies and brass for a rifle you don't have, but there you go! If anyone has one they want to part with, or knows of one for sale, please let me know. Jeff | |||
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Actually the swivel base is the hard part to come by the vise is easier to get just depends on how much you want to pay. www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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Found a D40. Thanks for the input, folks! Jeff | |||
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