Hoo BOY!!! This should start a lively discussion....!!!

To me, a "good" barrel is one that shoots well. I have owned a sizeable number of Remington factory barrels which meet that criterion.

So far, I have not come across any definitive way of telling how well a barrel will shoot by looking at it with a bore scope. Have I missed something fundamental all these years?

quote:

So far, I have not come a cross any definitive way of telling how well a barrel will shoot by looking at it with a bore scope. Have I missed something fundamental all these years?

Not in the way I see things!

so long as it spits the bullet out the barrel the same every time who gives a rats bum?
i seen plenty of rem guns shoot better than i can point it.
suppose the flash bbl would be easer to clean?
greg

I've had a good number of barrels from remington shoot OK, but the majority I've seen from Lilja, Krieger,, Hart, and Shilen have shot better. I think they are trying to show what you are getting for your $300 barrel. The lapped barrels are definately easier to clean as the copper is much easier to remove.

John

quote:

Originally posted by Big Bore Boar Hunter:
I've had a good number of barrels from remington shoot OK, but the majority I've seen from Lilja, Krieger,, Hart, and Shilen have shot better. I think they are trying to show what you are getting for your $300 barrel. The lapped barrels are definately easier to clean as the copper is much easier to remove.

John

I've met Dan Lilja several times at the SHOT Show, and he is a nice, capable guy. I also have some of his barrelsn on my BR guns and have no complaints about them.

What I DO NOT admire is any attempt to sell one's goods by trashing someone else's goods.

Remington barrels are well known historically for their good quality...in fact for many years they made only barrels, before getting into the gun manufacturing business.

Comparing ANY competently made custom barrel with a factory barrel is silly, I think. Their markets are not the same, their objectives are not the same, and their prices aren't even close to the same. It's like comparing apples and bowling balls.

Anyway, I berlieve a man's goods should sell on their own merits, not on some invalid, invidious, comparison.

Others' mileage may vary.

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:

quote:

Originally posted by Big Bore Boar Hunter:
I've had a good number of barrels from remington shoot OK, but the majority I've seen from Lilja, Krieger,, Hart, and Shilen have shot better. I think they are trying to show what you are getting for your $300 barrel. The lapped barrels are definately easier to clean as the copper is much easier to remove.

John

I've met Dan Lilja several times at the SHOT Show, and he is a nice, capable guy. I also have some of his barrelsn on my BR guns and have no complaints about them.

What I DO NOT admire is any attempt to sell one's goods by trashing someone else's goods.

Remington barrels are well known historically for their good quality...in fact for many years they made only barrels, before getting into the gun manufacturing business.

Comparing ANY competently made custom barrel with a factory barrel is silly, I think. Their markets are not the same, their objectives are not the same, and their prices aren't even close to the same. It's like comparing apples and bowling balls.

Anyway, I berlieve a man's goods should sell on their own merits, not on some invalid, invidious, comparison.

Others' mileage may vary.

If the factory barrels are so good then why are so many replaced with "custom" barrels? Perhaps what he is trying to illustrate is the reason so many factory barrels are replaced.

The way I see it, if you are afraid to have your product scrutinized then perhaps it has faults. If not, you'd not be concerned about direct comparisons.

quote:

Originally posted by rem721:
...The way I see it, if you are afraid to have your product scrutinized then perhaps it has faults. If not, you'd not be concerned about direct comparisons.

Every product has faults/variations,its just that usually the higher priced products may have a reduced margin of error or variation,which is likely to contribute to better, more reliable performance or accuracy.
If ya really wanted to create an accurate barrel,you would probably start by using an wire EDM machine to cut within low single figure microns, instead of drilling like they do. But it would probably cost notably more than a Lija or krieger,due to machine time(plus the cost of an EDM machine that can cut over a length of about 30+inches aint cheap,many times more than one that cuts over 12")

Im not sure that using a rem barrel to compare to a Lija is actually trashing the rem tube.
One could compare a MazdaMx5miata to porsche boxster,and yes the boxster is a better engineered car,but the Mazda well satisfies alot of people for the price. Gotta make your own mind up what you really need or want.
Tis frustrating when a factory barrel shoots very well,but you really want a custom tube, but cant really justify one except through simple desire to have one.

That Rem barrel had button chatter, and is worse than most any Rem barrel.

They are not all that bad, but Rem should have inspected out that barrel.

I have an Addams and Bennet barrel with button chatter that will Copper foul in 5 shots.


I think most of the time Lilja barrels will be 10 times better than Rem, not 100 times, like in the video.

From my experience,factory hammer-forged barrels are more accurate and wooden rifle stocks give better accuracy than synthetic stocks because wood dampens barrel and action vibrations.My most accurate rifles are factory rifles with wooden stocks.I have owned synthetic stocked rifles and match barreled rifles.People seem to accept the opposite as the truth or they have seen it wriiten in stone some place.

A borescope is a great tool to sell barrels and barreling work with. Even though the new barrel might shoot the same as the old one, the customer will have more confidence in the new one, they will shoot it better.

If you haven't looked down many barrels with a scope, don't look down your own. You'll have doubt in the back of your mind when you pull the trigger. Unless, you want to spend the money to have a quality barrel installed correctly. Then ask your smith to look through his work.

I had a M700 .416 Rem Mag from their custom shop that would visibly be jacked metal washed in as few as three shots. I had it lapped and it then did not foul as visibly, and cleaned up quickly.

I do have one Lilja barrel on a ULA ML rifle that shoots very well, and cleans easily.

jim

Three of us locally have been looking down every tube we use, with a 17" borescope, since about 1994. The two things we have learned for sure is that finishes vary considerably in barrels, even of the same makes, and that the apparent differences seem to have no predictable bearing on how the barrels perform....except for helping confirm shot-out throats.

quote:

Originally posted by rem721:

If the factory barrels are so good then why are so many replaced with "custom" barrels? Perhaps what he is trying to illustrate is the reason so many factory barrels are replaced.

The way I see it, if you are afraid to have your product scrutinized then perhaps it has faults. If not, you'd not be concerned about direct comparisons.

Probably because of the same reasons some folks have apparently convinced themselves that a gun which will not shoot sub 1/2 MOA groups is not capable of producing good results in the hunting field. Of course that is not true, but somehow they apparently feel so. Perhaps they are taught that by good marketing hype?

And speaking of direct comparisons, one can directly compare an apple and an 8x8x16 cement block, but why? They are not the same sort of product....not for the same use, same market, or same price. Neither is a custom barrel and a factory barrel. The answer may be simple, as pointed out by others. It is to sell barrels, by showing that other barrels are not made as smooth. Well, so what? Does that mean the less expensive, less smooth barrel is not perfectly adequate for its intended use. No, it doesn't.

Another possibility (please don't think anyone needs to wear this shoe if it doesn''t fit), is that some are trying to buy success. If a person can't or won't learn how to really hunt and/or shoot well, then it is quite easy to blame the gun or the barrel, or whatever, and throw some more money at the cursed inaccurate factory "junk".

And with that inciting comment, I think I'll leave this topic for a while. Everyone's gonna believe what they already believe, anyway.

Best wishes, AC

Or, perhaps, some people tire easily of dedicating hours to cleaning a rough bore in order to restore that minute of deer accuracy?

how many remington barrels did lilja have to look through to find one that rough? actually im currently rebarreling a remington with a lilja barrel

Gentlemen,

We have a video scope, which we use to look at barrels with.

Some of the barrels look like miniature rail road tracks which have been cut in half and arranged sideways!

Needles to say, none of these barrels shoot worth a damn.

All of these come from European manufactured factory rifles, and I think the very worst were made by BSA and Sauer.

Remkington seems to produce some excpetional barrels - on their Sendero rifles. And some are just dediocre.

Of the custom barrel makers, we have used Lilja, Hart, Shilen, Krieger, Douglas and others. All of these have shot exceptionally well.

We have not had a single barrel that did not shoot so well from these manufacturers.

The exception was Black Star barrels. Those were terrible, and guess that is why the company did not last so long.

My personal choice in large bore barrels would be Lilja's.

One of my two 375/404 rifles has a Lilja barrel, and the other has a Shilen barrel.

Both have been on several African hunts, are not treated tith kid gloves, and still shoot exceptionally.

At the end of each of our hunts, we let the trackers, game scouts and some of the camp staff have a shooting contest with these two rifles.

They are shot alternately, but rather fast. We wet a towel with cold water to keep the barrels from getting too hot to handle.

Each year, I load our hunting ammo just before we go on our hunt, and shoot a 3 shot group through each rifle.

Both rifles shot about 0.6" group last month when I tried them.

I have seen barrels that look so smooth inside, like someone had polished them by hand to remove any tool marks, and still not shoot so well.

We have a Remington 700 with Hart barrel in 308 Winchester. That rifle is used here by anyone who wants to shoot, and we use military ball ammo in it most of teh time.

I would guess this barrel must have had at least 50,000 rounds through it.

The barrel looks like the skin of an elephant when you look at it with a bore scope. The rifle still shoots better than a lot of the factory rifles that are brought in here.

The bench rest crowd seem to move between different barrel manufacturers continuously. For huting, I would pick any of the above mentioned manufacturers, and know full well that if the rifle is put together right, it will shoot as good as I am able to under hunting conditions and lastly me a lifetime of hunting.

quote:

The bench rest crowd seem to move between different barrel manufacturers continuously. For huting, I would pick any of the above mentioned manufacturers, and know full well that if the rifle is put together right, it will shoot as good as I am able to under hunting conditions and lastly me a lifetime of hunting.

well done saeed. that sounded like a much better and unbiased analisis of barrels to me.
top info.
greg

I think it pretty well explains why some products are more expensive than others.

That does not necessaryl mean that those product also perform better than the cheaper ones. When I can afford it, I do prefer to purchase quality, it just feels better as well.

Factory barrels have factory chambers, too. That usually means that you cannot load and shoot what we call precision reloads in those barrels.
Custom barrels have custom chambers. That is a must if one wants top accuracy from a rifle.
It is a very long jump from a rifle that shoots consistent 3/4" five shot groups to a rifle capable of shooting 3/8" or less five shot groups.

I've done a helluva lotta prairie dog shooting since I started in 1962....I'd estimate over 100,000 rounds fired from .222 to .257 Wby mag.

I've used barrels from Remington, Winchester, Douglas, Savage, Lilja, PacNor, Shilen and even Herters.

Without a doubt the best doggers I've owned was a Remington 788 and a Savage 110!!!!! My best record was a staggering 39 consecutive hits from a Star barrel I got from Herters for $10 that I chambered in .222 and attached to a Sako L461!

At least with the varminting calibers, I've never encountered a fouling problem either.

If I'd had that borescope, I'd probably missed a lot more dogs knowing how bad those bores looked.

quote:

Originally posted by tnekkcc:
That Rem barrel had button chatter, and is worse than most any Rem barrel.

How can any new Remington barrel have 'button chatter' when they are hammer forged?

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
... If a person can't or won't learn how to really hunt and/or shoot well, then it is quite easy to blame the gun or the barrel, or whatever, and throw some more money at the cursed inaccurate factory "junk". ...

Hey AC, Come to think of it, all those groups I PM-ed you about, which were shot in the Gusting Wind, from a Tailgate, sitting atop Milk Crates, using Hunting Ammo with Standard Grade Bullets came from rifles with the cursed inaccurate factory "junk" barrels. I'll need to go off and do a bit of pondering () about how much $$$money$$$ it will take to replace all of them with barrels that will " buy success ".

Oh my gosh!!! Come to think of it, they didn't even have "Custom Chambers" and one was Testing a $70 scope.
-----

Best of luck to all you folks with whatever barrel you use.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
Hey AC, Come to think of it, all those groups I PM-ed you about, which were shot in the Gusting Wind, from a Tailgate, sitting atop Milk Crates, using Hunting Ammo with Standard Grade Bullets came from rifles with the cursed inaccurate factory "junk" barrels. I'll need to go off and do a bit of pondering () about how much $$$money$$$ it will take to replace all of them with barrels that will " buy success ".

Oh my gosh!!! Come to think of it, they didn't even have "Custom Chambers" and one was Testing a $70 scope.

Exactly!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
Comparing ANY competently made custom barrel with a factory barrel is silly, I think. Their markets are not the same, their objectives are not the same, and their prices aren't even close to the same. It's like comparing apples and bowling balls..

Not really. How do you know that video is an attempt to trash Remington barrels? It could be nothing more then a demonstration of what you get with a custom barrel over a factory barrel. I simply viewed it as a neat demonstration between a factory, fully capable, hunting barrel versus a bench rest grade barrel.

If you look thorough enough barrels with the right light you will learn to see some that with the bare eye.
One thing that the clip does not show you is what happens to each barrel after 100 to 200 rounds. A lot of the rough stuff that you can see in the Remington barrel will disappear as it is fired and cleaned. Lilja's unlapped barrels may look more like Remingtons before they are lapped.
One thing the bore scope does not tell you though is the bore and groove diameters and their consistency.
Surface texture is not the only thing to consider. A ho hum gunsmith and reamer can make a mess of the best barrel.

i always look down the barrel to make sure there is a hole in the middle and then go to shooting. if it shoots well i keep it, if not i throw the barrel away and put on a new one, making sure it has a hole in it too. proof of the pudding is in the eating

I have witnessed Military 8mmX57 ,Mod 98s with really dark barrels shoot near MOA. Just thought I'd throw that in.

10 minutes ago I finished running a mixture of Bon Ami and degreaser through a .308 Adams Bennet barrel that looked clean after working on it for a week. The first dry patch through it after lapping had more gunk on it than most I've ever seen. This to me is the rael blight of rough barrels; getting them clean. Most often this barrel shoots a number of loads at MOA.

If I ever start hunting deer again the rifle I would carry does not shoot MOA. I have many hunting class rifles that do, but the one I would carry is a Sporterized ( lightened) Mod. 98, 7mm X 57 with a 19" replacement barrel, and a 1 1/2 power up front (scout) mounted scope ( Hot Core special). The pos barrel is good enough to hit em where I want up to 200 yds. and most of what I've taken has been under that. Besides 200 yds. is a long walk for me. Hauling it out beyond that would be a real chore and building a fire and eating it is years behind me. roger

quote:

Originally posted by bartsche:
... 200 yds. is a long walk for me. Hauling it out beyond that would be a real chore and building a fire and eating it is years behind me. roger

You aahh..., talkin about the rifle (with the scope mounted wrong)?

quote:

How can any new Remington barrel have 'button chatter' when they are hammer forged?

I dont't know who told you this, but they/you are wrong. For that matter I don't know of any US barrel maker that hammer forges.

Shawn

quote:

Originally posted by onefunzr2:

quote:

Originally posted by tnekkcc:
That Rem barrel had button chatter, and is worse than most any Rem barrel.

How can any new Remington barrel have 'button chatter' when they are hammer forged?

I must be full of shit.
I assumed that the corresponding hatch marks on the groove and lands could only be caused by a button chattering.
A button would have a harder time to make that transition in width of the lands than a mandrel.

Remington on average sells good barrels. I don't think Dan Liljas is trashing Remington, nothing is said about there ability to shoot, rather, he is showing a difference between his barrel and a factory remington. One could argue that these are hand picked, but my experience is that about 20 % of the non varmint barrels would fall into this category. Varmint barrels, Sendero Barrels, and PSS Barrels are typically better made.
'
Those that make customr rifles for a living can't afford to have non-shooters, even 1 out of a 1000 could ruin ones reputation. For my name, I would pick Lilja, Krieger, Hart, or Shillen with confidence.

John

Remington press release

Second paragraph is about 416 stainless, 3rd paragraph is about carbon steel hammer forged barrels. The models 798 and 799 also list hammer forged barrels, but I believe they are made in Europe.

For Remington Arms Company:
Al Russo: (336) 548-8572

Call Al and ask him if the press release is wrong.

Well you live and you learn. I wonder if these barrels are being made here or somewhere else? I also wonder if this is for .17 fire ball only. I will find out.

Shawn

Shawn,

I believe Ruger also started hammer forging barrels sometime in the recent past. (like in the last five years)

quote:

Originally posted by ireload2:
If you look thorough enough barrels with the right light you will learn to see some that with the bare eye.
One thing that the clip does not show you is what happens to each barrel after 100 to 200 rounds. A lot of the rough stuff that you can see in the Remington barrel will disappear as it is fired and cleaned. Lilja's unlapped barrels may look more like Remingtons before they are lapped.
One thing the bore scope does not tell you though is the bore and groove diameters and their consistency.
Surface texture is not the only thing to consider. A ho hum gunsmith and reamer can make a mess of the best barrel.

Here is a 300yd offhand group I shot yesterday with a Krieger barreled Rem 700.The trigger on this rifle is harder than my hunting rifles and it has been a few years since I attempted to do this.I hope I practice enough to get back to were I was.[URL= ]a[/URL]

Someone, I will call him Dennis, shot a .375" 5 shot group at 100 meters with a box stock Rem 700 .223 on Thursday, while using my handloads: 33 gr Vmax moly 15 gr Blue Dot seated long.

That is better than I have shot so far with my barrels made by Hart, Krieger, Lothar Walther, Shilen, Lilja, Pac-Nor, or Douglas.

That is becuase the wind died down on Thursday, and I was hard at work while Dennis is retired

Woodjack,
I don't believe that technology is availabe to wire EDM rifling in a barrel. Bluetick, I believe that Remington has been hammerforging for awhile. I believe the barrels that Shilen are doing for them now are some of the rimfire barrels. They are button rifled.
Butch

quote:

Originally posted by bluetick:

quote:

How can any new Remington barrel have 'button chatter' when they are hammer forged?

I dont't know who told you this, but they/you are wrong. For that matter I don't know of any US barrel maker that hammer forges.

Shawn

This is from Winchesters web site.

"Because Chrome Moly steel is more malleable than stainless steel, it enables U. S. Repeating Arms Co. to use the rotary hammer forging process to form the rifling in most Chrome Moly Model 70 barrels. In this method a Tungsten Carbide mandrel, containing the rifling in high relief, is inserted into the drilled and reamed barrel blank. Opposing hammer forces progressively form the blank over the mandrel with the result of molding and replicating the rifling on the mandrel into the bore. Hammer forging is an excellent method to insure rifling consistency and identical twist rate from barrel to barrel. All Model 70 models with Chrome Moly barrels, except the heavy magnum Safari calibers from 375 H & H Magnum on up, are hammer forged.

All Model 70 stainless steel barrels, as well as the heavy magnum Chrome Moly barrels mentioned above, are button rifled. After boring and reaming the blank, a Tungsten Carbide button attached to a high tensile steel rod, is pushed through the barrel. As the button travels through the bore, it is precisely rotated to produce the correct rate of twist for the specific caliber being rifled. Lands on the button engrave grooves into the bore"



Of course the hammer forging machines cost upward of a million dollars each so it's pretty much a high volume factory operation.