Don

"Do not use rental reamers on �super-alloy� steels, Black Star barrels, chrome bores (military barrels) or any hardened steel (such as dies). Any unusual wear or excessive dulling will result in the charges listed in paragraph 1). "

That's all I know about it.

www.pac-nor.com
www.kriegerbarrels.com
www.riflebarrels.com
www.shilen.com

Don

[This message has been edited by Don G (edited 05-04-2001).]

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

I have stopped using Black Star barrels. They are very difficult to machine - in fact, the only reamer that I have ever broke was while chambering a Black Star barrel.

I have tried all sorts of speeds and different lubes, but still cannot get them to machine like barrels from other quality makers.

My advice is to avoid them, and buy a barrel from any of the great makers like Hart, Shilen, Lilja, Krieger and Douglas.

We've had great results from barrels from all these makers, and would not hesitate in recommending any of them.

Lilja seems to produce very accurate barrels in the larger calibers, like 375 and 458.

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

K&P rifle barrels were used by Blackstar in Blackstar's early days. K&P barrels are cut rifled, so they probably couldn't keep up with high production rates. I have heard good things about their barrels. I don't know their phone number. I believe they are either in Ratton NM or Trinidad CO.

I am not a gunsmith and thus have no experience machining the Blackstar barrel. That said, I have absolutely no use for the company. First, the basic product is Lothar Walther. I am almost certain that the 700 stainless steel which Blackstar touts and has claimed credit for developing is actually Lothar Walther's development in its
entirety. Lothar pioneered the steel and
Blackstar took credit for it. I guess Lothar allowed them to do that because the Blacsktar product is a Lothar Walher barrel---albeit after Blackstar has screwed with it with their electro-polish. Second, Blackstar claims their electro-polish gives a tapered bore. What they neglect to tell you is that the Lothar barrel comes with a tapered bore. It is designed into the finished product by Lothar at the factory. Blackstar's electro-polish process does not remove enough steel to taper the damned bore! Third, Blackstar has been bought and sold more times than a Vegas hooker. Most recently, I don't like what they did to the Idaho gunsmith [his name escapes me at the moment] who tried to buy the company from them a few years ago. I don't know the specifics on that deal, but from what I have heard, I am siding with the Idaho gunsmith. Finally, from the anectodal accounts I have heard, their customer service is terrible.

Mark Stousse apparently wants badly to be a player in the rifle accuracy and manufacturing game, but in so doing, he and his company have developed a reputation for over-stating the facts, falsely claiming credit where none is due and neglecting to tell people the true facts about his product.
Perhaps some one first hand knowledge of the facts could enlighten us on Blackstar's fall-out with the Idaho gunsmith who tried to buy the company. Blackstar just rubs me the wrong way...

Regards,

Jordan

I implied that Blackstar had changed ownership many times. I am only aware of one change of ownership---the sale to a southern Idaho gunsmith---and then Stousse taking the company back again via a lawsuit. They have changed barrels at least once also. They started out using a K&P rifled barrel, at which time Blackstar claimed that the K&P was, without question, the last word in barrels.
After K&P and Blackstar had had enough of each other, Blackstar announced that they had switched to Lothar Walther and that in truth, Lothar Walther had the best barrel going [Pac Nor apparently came in a close second in Blackstar's evaluation]. Now, Lothar Walther is, by all accounts, a fine, fine barrel [hell, maybe it is the best]. Their measuring and machining equipment [from what I have been able to learn] is state of the art. The larger point however is that Blackstar's defintion of the best barrel seems to have an awful lot to to do with who is supplying them with blanks at the moment and thus calls into question their objectivity to some extent, not to mention their other advertising claims.
Along the same lines is Blackstar's claim to have developed "700 stainless"; that in essence this very excellent barrel steel is a reflection of Blackstar's genius. It is not. 700 stainless is solely the development of Lothar Walther. I do not doubt for a moment that it gives great throat life, but that is the doing of Lothar Walther, not Blackstar. Thank Lothar Walther for that, not Mark Stousse.
I am only repeating second hand what I have been told, but I am willing to lay coin that if you call Lothar and ask Woody whether Blackstar gets special barrel steel for their blanks, he will tell you that they get the same steel Lothar uses on all their stainless steel barrels and that Lothar developed it; not Mark Stousse or Blackstar.
That, in a nutshell, is the problem with Blackstar: inflated or dishonest claims to have originated or developed new and excellent products [700 stainless and "tapered bore"] when such is entirely the result of someone else's genius [Lothar Walther] not Mark Stousse or Blackstar. A related example is their apparent definition as the best barrel manufacturuer as whoever company is supplying them at the moment
[K&P, Lothar Walther, who knows who is next].
So, there is a pattern of deception or "puffing" here that raises serious questions about their electro-polishing process: if the statement "Blackstar electro-polish works" is true in the same way the companies claim to have "developed 700 stainless and to have honed a taper into their bores" is true, then clearly, their claims about the electro-polishing process are false.
Now, they claim to have empirical evidence in the from of high tech bore photography showing a smoother surface after their polishing process, but is such any more superior than the result after 50 rounds down the bore intermixed with some thorough cleaning with JB or Flitz?
And don't forget the infamous Dura-bore treatment. If I recall this was a ceramic type coating that was supposed to be the greatest thing since the discovery of gunpowder. It was a disaster. Blackstar marketed it before it was adequately tested and on Mark Stousse's representation, alot of people thus bought a defective product. Stousse took it off the market, but an announcement: "we screwed up big time" was warranted. We never got it.
In short, the Blackstar barrel is a great product only because it is a Lother Walther barrel machined from Lothar's steel. On Stousse's past performance, we have no reason to think that Blackstar's process adds a damn thing to the barrel; although it does a nice job of lightening your wallet. I think their whole presentation is a gimmick. If the Blackstar barrel is a great product, IMHO, it is solely due to the fact that it is a Lothar Walther barrel.

Am I being too harsh?

Jordan

I think I understand the Blackstar story just as you do.

I do have one problem, though, and that is not just with Blackstar, but with any maker who claims to have the BEST of anything.

This might be true in thier own opinions, but certainly not as far as others are concerned.

My own inclination is to be very wary of absolute statements like that.

On the subject of barrels, I have used at least one thousand barrels from all the well knowm makers like Hart, Lilja, Shilen, Krieger and Douglas. Every single one of them shot extremely well, and they very easy to machine.

I would have no hesitation in recommending them all without any reservations.

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saeed@ emirates.net.ae

www.accuratereloading.com

Tim

I do not disagree with a thing you wrote. I was not trying to assert that Lothar Walther is the best so much as illustrate the fact that Blackstar takes credit where none [or little] is due; that in all probablility, their process adds nothing to the quality of Lothar Walther's original work and thus, whatever "good" inheres in the barrel is the result of what Lothar Walther did, not Blackstar's snake oil.

With the benefit of much money spent on advertizing Blackstar has exploited [and quite well at that] our craving for the rifle-barrel equivalent of a better mouse-trap [and when it comes to "new" barrel technology, we are all suckers for that]
IMHO they have achieved this by exploiting the fact that very, very few persons have genuine first-hand knowledge of the intricacies and nuances of the interior of a rifle barrel and the particulars of rifling technology, etc., [i.e., by taking advantage of our ignorance]. As consumers, we have been too willing to believe Blackstar's inflated claims.

Knowing, as most of us do now, that Blackstar has a poor record on credibility, and scrutinizing their claims with a critical eye, we have come to see that whatever good inheres in the product was, for all intents and purposes, there in the first instance. It resulted from what Lothar Walther did [tapered bore, straight hole, better steel, more precise measuring, whatever] not from some silly claim that Blackstar was tapering the bore or appreciably improving it by polishing it.

I do give Lothar much credit for the 700 stainless because, based on what I have read, it has superior wear resistance. Perhaps I am wrong in this regard. I am by no means a metallurgist, have not a clue as to the chemical properties of that steel and am only repeating what I have read. Alternatively, perhaps the steel was developed first by others or is not all that "revolutionary". I will also give Lothar credit for producing, in typically German tradition, with precision and quality, [although perhaps the American barrels are produced here in the states]. I am a sucker for anything German or Swiss [and in the case of Sako, Finnish]

And kudos to Ray Atkinson for saying much the same thing in less than 20 words!!!

Best Regards,

Jordan

The other thing is Lothar Walther has a polishing mandrill that cannot be improved on so where are these folks comming from?? Let the buyer beware..

I use only Lothar Walther barrels and I assure you accuracy cannot be improved on them and anyone thats used them will attest to that...

Bottom line is I smell a rat!!

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

A very interesting situation; so Stousse sold Brockman a worthless technology and equipment. Figured something went sideways real bad. I wondered why Stousse would seel such a great technology/process after spending so much on advertizing over the years, especially when it seemed apparent he wanted badly to be a player in the barrel scene. We have never heard from Brockman on this whole sorry episode and I am betting his would be an interesting story. I
wonder if the settlement with Blackstar required him to keep quiet on the particulars of defects in Blackstar's process? There is also the question, why did a savvy 'smith like Brockman buy in the first instance. The process must have had merit, or did he not scrutinize it closely enough? When Stousse started in business again Blackstar simply announced that it had "gotten the company back from its Idaho owners" or something to that effect. Would love to find out what court the matter was litigated in and read the pleadings. I spoke with Brockman over the phone a year or more ago and remember him saying that every penny he was making was going to lawyers. Sad state of affairs. I'll bet he is glad to be done with it.
Initially I was very taken with Blackstar. So was my rifle builder, Greg Tannel [GTR Tooling/Gre-Tan Rifles]
Blackstar spent alot of money on advertizing. Greg stold me how it all fell apart for him. I don't remember the specifics, but for some reason he had cause to start scrutinizing their barrels with a bore-scope. He saw major bore anomalies [missing segments of rifling, over-sized bore diameters, etc.], not to mention that they could not seem to get an order right.
As he started bore-scoping. he also saw that they had a very, very high defect/anomalie rate. Also, they seemed to have alot of troule getting contours and twists right. So what was the point of ordering if most of what you received was galled or bastardized inside or the wrong caliber, twist or contour?
One barrel in particular was just butchered on the inside. He complained loudly to Stousse about it and they were just incredulous at what he described, so they said send it to us so we can see it with our own eyes and we will send you another. Greg said he would only send it on their promise to return it [he wanted to keep the evidence]. Blackstar promised they would send the barrel back, so he sent it and they never did return the barrel with the butchered bore. Greg called a couple of times and they were always promising, "oh yeah, we will ship that right away." Not sure if they even replaced his barrel.
Greg has quite a story to tell about Blackstar. He has no use for the company or their product. Hope I am not speaking out of turn here, but if anyone were to ask Greg, I don't think he would be shy in telling you about the problems he saw in their product. It is all the more interesting because Blackstar came to him years ago and asked him to research feed rates, cutting fluid composition, etc. to get good machining results on their [or rather Lothar's] 700 stainless. I guess they came to him 'cause of his "through muzzle" barrel flush system which keeps the reamer under constant lubrication. Anyway, he wrote up some stuff for Precision Shooting about how to machine 700 stainless. So at one time, he was a big fan of Blackstar, but he is now an unapologetic apostate! He swears never to use another Blackstar barrel.
Truthfully, I wonder if it was not a mistake for Lothar to hook up with Stousse. Who am I to question what is in their best interests, but if Blackstar's process has a tendency to screw up a barrel and if it is widely known that the barrel itself is supplied by Lothar Walther, aren't peple likely to confuse the cause of the problem and get the wrong impression about Lothar Walther? Just an observation.

Regards,

Jordan

This situation has causes us some problems, both simple and complex. The largest of which is the 700 stainless. We have never used this steel. Concerning the Blackstar Accumax II line, the buttoned barrels, these were from LW 50 stainless. This is a special DIN Spec. steel.

At the time, we were not set up to handle fully the individual barrels for the US market. We were a large OEM supplier of high quality barrels. We had started to address this market, particularly benchrest, but we had just begun down this path.

The use of electropolishing had been done in barrels for some time, but not to the extent that Blackstar was doing. The concept that they were using was valid. The marketing effort was to be a great benefit to the shooting sports. By the time Mr. Brockman got the company, we had already heard some complaints.

But, just because a process has validity does not make it fully useable. It has to be controlled. We spend huge amounts of time verifying our processes to make sure quality is uniform. The German plant is ISO certified and the GA plant is not,yet, but the same protocols are being followed as if we were. All of the blanks used in the US come from the German plant. So, in working with them, we will notice any deviation.

The two plants can varify each other and actually there is a healthy competition between them.

Yes, you are right, that there has been some confusion over the two products. While I have machined a number of the Blackstar barrels, I noticed only a slight difference in the machinability of the cryo treated barrels. But, I am averaging 160-200 barrels per insert anyway and a slight change will hardly be noticed.

Mr. Brockman tired to correct everything and we worked with him closely. About the time things were beginning to run right, everything changed again. But, by then the damage was done.

As there are so many contours possible to meet the market need, we had to develop entire systems to make sure that the customer gets exactly what they order. The higher you go in quality, the higher the customer's expectations become. We put our reputation on the table with each individual barrel we ship. This is an awesome responsibility and I constantly have to drive the point home to every worker both here in the US and in Germany, that "you are working for the customer that will use the barrel that you are working on". Yet, we do make mistakes.

LW 50 and its development.

We realized nearly 10 years ago that there were more and more light rifles, more calibers working at the 65,000 PSI range and more loadings that were erosive. As our equipment was not antique, we were not limited to 416R and similar steels. Once you get used to it, the stuff machines well. It does not like setups that are not rigid. Over 90% of our reamers are HSS and we have no problems. I have more trouble with the normal steel barrels.

If you have more specific questions, don't hesitate to send me an e-mail.

Thank you for clearing up some of my misconceptions, but your post also raises some questions, if you don't mind. First, did Lothar Walther actually perform the Blackstar process on barrels, or were the barrels sent to Blackstar for them to
apply the electro-polish process themselves? Second, is "700 stainless" a proprietary development of Blackstar, or was Blackstar merely the first to use it in a gun barrel. Can you tell us what the actual chemical designation of the steel is---or am I to understand that you never made barrels for Blackstar out of 700 stainless? I was under the impression that 700 stainless [whatever the heck it is] was actually Lothar's development and that it is the same steel used in all Lothar stainless barrels. Are you saying that Lothar never made barrels for Blackstar out of "700 stainless" and that all Blackstar barrels made by Lothar Walther were out of LW 50 DIN spec.? This obviously leads into the question how is LW 50 different or superior to other barrel steels, if at all? Third, it has always been my assumption that button rifling produces such a smooth finish that electro-polishing was more or less redundant. Your post seems to suggest that the process has merit. Typically, can you quantify for us how smooth are your bores after rifling, honing, [whatever] and how much smoother, if any, did the Blackstar process make them? Finally, one of Blackstar's sales pitches was that their electro-polish process imparted a taper to the bore with the muzzle end being slightly smaller. It was my understanding that the manufacturing process employed by Lothar Walther itself is responsible for this taper, not Blackstar's electro-polish. Can you clarify some of these issues for us.
Finally, can you tell us a little bit about your manufacturing process, particularly the deep-hole drilling equipment you use, or at least the tolerances which your equipment is able to hold. I understand that your process uses some state of the art machine tooling or measuring devices for drilling straight holes and such. Please advise if you can.

Thanks,

Jordan

quote:

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Originally posted by Jordan:
Woody:

Jordan,

I will do my best to answer the questions.

Thank you for clearing up some of my misconceptions, but your post also raises some questions, if you don't mind. First, did Lothar Walther actually perform the Blackstar process on barrels, or were the barrels sent to Blackstar for them to
apply the electro-polish process themselves?

(ww)No, We supplied them raw rifled blanks. No additional work was done.

Second, is "700 stainless" a proprietary development of Blackstar, or was Blackstar merely the first to use it in a gun barrel. Can you tell us what the actual chemical designation of the steel is---or am I to understand that you never made barrels for Blackstar out of 700 stainless?

(ww)The material specifications that I saw were from Crucible. LW never made any barrels out of this material. It has some similar properties to the LW 50, but it is also completely different. All Blackstar barrels made by LW for the Accumax II line were LW 50 with the exception of some (a few) bought out of inventory that were the other stainless. (LW 6, for rimfire)

I was under the impression that 700 stainless [whatever the heck it is] was actually Lothar's development and that it is the same steel used in all Lothar stainless barrels. Are you saying that Lothar never made barrels for Blackstar out of "700 stainless" and that all Blackstar barrels made by Lothar Walther were out of LW 50 DIN spec.?

(ww)See Above... The LW 50 is a German produced steel and the other stuff is a US steel.

This obviously leads into the question how is LW 50 different or superior to other barrel steels, if at all?

(ww)LW 50 was developed to give additional strength in the higher pressure calibers. It also, due to its chemical makeup, reduces throat erosion. It is heat treatable and is suitable for all types of barrels. It does have its own personality. It feels hard, but it is actually HRC 19-23. This feature gives its barrel life improvement. The problem is gives people is that if your setups are not correct, it will show you instantly.

Third, it has always been my assumption that button rifling produces such a smooth finish that electro-polishing was more or less redundant. Your post seems to suggest that the process has merit. Typically, can you quantify for us how smooth are your bores after rifling, honing, [whatever] and how much smoother, if any, did the Blackstar process make them?

(ww)Under the correct conditions, button rifling makes a smooth bore. This would shoot but it is not our level of quality to just have a barrel shoot well. It has to be capable to shoot the best possible. Therefore we perform a honing operation. Our process automates hand lapping with a few different features.

Electropolishing was originally used in creating a clean surface for plating barrels. Under controlled conditions, it gives the smoothest surface I have ever seen inside of a gun barrel. But, the key word here is "control". This process must be controlled.

I want to interject something else here. All process used in manufacturing have problems associated with them. In the case of barrelmaking, most companies are small. At production quantities of 5,000-10,000 per year only the low order anomalies appear. At 100,000+ barrels per year, you get to see the high order anomalies. Knowing how every barrel in a particular caliber relates to every other barrel of that caliber reduces these problems to a very low level.

Finally, one of Blackstar's sales pitches was that their electro-polish process imparted a taper to the bore with the muzzle end being slightly smaller. It was my understanding that the manufacturing process employed by Lothar Walther itself is responsible for this taper, not Blackstar's electro-polish. Can you clarify some of these issues for us.

(ww)Most LW barrels have a process done to them which gives a tapered bore. The electropolish can accomplish the same thing. It can do it better in some respects and where we are limited in the amount of taper, the EP is not. They are just different ways of doing a job.

Finally, can you tell us a little bit about your manufacturing process, particularly the deep-hole drilling equipment you use, or at least the tolerances which your equipment is able to hold. I understand that your process uses some state of the art machine tooling or measuring devices for drilling straight holes and such. Please advise if you can.

(ww)I really can not go into detail in this area.
However, all machinery is chosen based on it being the best for the job. Both factories are completely digital, climate controlled and in critical operations, sterile.

If anyone claims that they can drill a perfectly straight hole, 24"-30" deep, they are pulling your leg. Knowing what will work and what will not work is critical. If someone else tells you that they can drill a perfectly straight hole this long it means that their inspection equipment is lacking. Our deep drills are all CNC with complete feedback. They can modify their operations to achieve the baseline quality or they will shut themselves off and ask for help.

Each department in our factories inter-relate with all other departments which means that the dimensions are flexable and relate to a particular product. Remember that there is always more than one way to skin a cat.

A good example is in turning. For an individual barrel, there is an intermadiate inspection, done during the turning process. During this inspection, we are looking for ANY internal dimensional change. If a change occurs >0.0001", the barrel is instantly rejected and the program is reset. If it passes, then the other internal operations are adjusted to what is in that particular barrel. Information coming from the work order, from the project itself is combined with technical information coming from the barrel. The best technology, combined with the best craftsmanship combined with the best systems communications. LW does not just think outside of the box, we live outside of the box. But, we can still do better and we will not stop trying.

Sincerely,
Woody

Thanks,

Jordan

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On the hardness issue, stainless barrels are softer than carbon. Yet, they last longer. Could it be that the corrosion resistant properties help it resist oxidation and erosion?? Probably. On chrome lining, same thing, corrosion resistance. It is like welding stainless. Less slag and mess than with carbon. I can't prove it but it makes sense to me. Could be wrong. : )

quote:

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Originally posted by Boltgun:
Then why do they harden machine gun barrels?
This is why chrome lined barrels are used in the M-16. Longer life,less friction, less corrosion.
Bolt

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Thank you for taking the time and coming over here to explain these points for us.

We appreciate it.

they are still in litagation and Jim, on the advise of his lawyers, won't talk about it and Jim wouldn't discuss his business with anyone anyway...Not his style.

I have drawn my conclusions from just what I saw and measured, as that is where I buy my barrels and I want no truck with Blackstar..I will purchase my Lothar Walther barrels from Brockmons..Lothar Walther barrels are absolutely the best I have ever used, bar none....

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Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com