I have an old semi-sporterized military carbine with bedded full length stock. The barrel is dark but shoots sufficiently with iron sights for hogs at under 100 yds.

The question: Is it possible or practical to rebore and rechamber the carbine to the new 6.8 SPC, without having to set the stepped barrel back and redo the bedding? The bolt face is flat and does not appear to require any modification.

Thanks for your input.

Geoff

Be sure and check if the 6.8 SPC will feed through the rotary magazine.

Since Steyr used a spool specifically designed for each caliber (6.5x54, 8x56, 9x56, 9.5x57) there's a good chance that the 6.8 SPC won't feed properly. Then you'd have to a) consider if the rotor could be modified to feed 6.8 SPC and b) how much it would cost to have done properly.

Hope this helps,
Washougal Chris

Dear Geoff,
I think you`ll find that the new 6.8 case is shorter than the 6.5x54 in the Greek. Stick with the original case Geoff.

Aloha- No Bro---Mark

Aloha Mark and Chris,

Yes, the 6.8 case is shorter, and the case diameter is close to the 6.5. Thus, I was hoping that it would feed in the rotary. It dawned on me that the barrel would have to be set back to rechamber and therefore would require stock and bedding modification to use the same barrel.

I will keep the carbine as is. Maybe I was just trying to find a way to spend money as the rest of us do, suffering from the "gun syndrome".

Thanks,

Geoff

I have one of these also, and have not yet fired it. It too has the "dark bore". My thought is "will this rifle's magazine accept and feed a 6.5 M/S cartridge necked up to hold a .277" bullet?" If so, my inclination would be to rebore it to .270 and keep the chamber the same and use a wildcat made by loading .270 Win. bullets in the necked-up 6.5X54 case, which will hold more powder than the 6.8 SPC case.

Once I fire the thing and see how poorly it shoots with the current bore, I can try to decide what to do next. (It's at my gunsmith's now having a Williams Guide rear with British shallow V rear sight put on so I can pretend I'm W.D.M. Bell shooting elephants with it!!)

I've tried .250 Savage cases to see if they'd feed. The rim/base portion of the case is just a teeny amount too big to permit the spool to revolve past the edge of the bottom of the magazine. The cases do fit the rotor itself. Oh, well. So much for that idea. So, next I'll neck up a couple of 6.5X54 cases and seat some 130-grain .270 bullets to see if these will work through the magazine. If all fails, I will have a new barrel fitted in 6.5X54 and contoured the same as the present one. This little carbine can't weigh more than 5 or 5.5 pounds as it now is, and at my age that's a real advantage!

El Deguello,

Thanks for the 270 alternative. Good idea if we can find a custom diemaker. I would use 150gr. 270 bullets as a minimum due to the fast twist. The current bore diameter is .266 and badly pitted. The rebore may require following the same twist. Maybe not, then a slower twist can be selected.

I love the carbine and have used it often to whack pigs in bushes and since I'm also a senior citizen, it's light weight is a dream.

Geoff

If memory serves me right (and that isn't 100%) Nonte in Cartridge Conversions recommended .220 Swift cases for conversion to 6.5x54. Regardless of who it was, I have tried them in an action I have and they will feed if I turn the semi rim down to rimless. Haven't looked at what I might have to do to get them to feed without alteration, but this might be another case to look at.

Thanks Thaine,

6.5x54 MS cases are readily available thru Norma and Hertinberger dealers, e.g. Graf & Sons and Buffalo Arms respectively.

There was a time when cases were almost non-existant in the U.S. and the 220 Swift alteration was a last ditch effort.

What we're looking for is a die maker for 270 x 54 MS as a last ditch effort to save the barrel and contour.

Geoff

quote:

Originally posted by geoff:
El Deguello,

Thanks for the 270 alternative. Good idea if we can find a custom diemaker. I would use 150gr. 270 bullets as a minimum due to the fast twist. The current bore diameter is .266 and badly pitted. The rebore may require following the same twist. Maybe not, then a slower twist can be selected.

I love the carbine and have used it often to whack pigs in bushes and since I'm also a senior citizen, it's light weight is a dream.

Geoff

Of course, if one rebores it to say .270, one can choose whatever twist turns him on. I had a.270 Win. cal. M/S carbine once, and it was cut 1/9". Shot very well!

I have Nonte's book right here, and as unbelievable as it sounds, he says "Form this case from .30/'06. Swage head to .447", size full-length in M/S die;trim to 2.12"; ream neck; Use .262(!!) bullets. Turn rim to .450", and cut new extractor groove." I think swaging a .30/'06 case to .447" would be about as easy as finding .262" bullets!!

I agree with you that it would be a helluva lot easier to make 'em from .220 Swift brass!

However, I just bought 100 new Norma cases from Huntington's in CA for $38.00. They're even cheaper than 6.5 Carcano brass. I believe one could use 6.5 Carcano brass by necking it up to .277", then reducing the neck dia. in a 6.5mm die leaving a "false shoulder for headspacing" until the bolt will just close with some force - like we do when making Gibbs cases, or making .338/'06 brass from .35 Whelen cases.

Grafs sells 6.5X52mm Carcano brass cheaper than 6.5X54 Norma cases.

I just checked prices for Norma 6.5X54mm cases. Huntingtons, $38.30 per 100; Graf's $44.60/100; and Buffalo Arms wants $ 0.80 PER CARTRIDGE CASE!! or $80.00 per hundred!

Think I'll stick with Huntington's.....

quote:

Originally posted by geoff:
El Deguello,

Thanks for the 270 alternative. Good idea if we can find a custom diemaker. I would use 150gr. 270 bullets as a minimum due to the fast twist. The current bore diameter is .266 and badly pitted. The rebore may require following the same twist. Maybe not, then a slower twist can be selected.

I love the carbine and have used it often to whack pigs in bushes and since I'm also a senior citizen, it's light weight is a dream.

Geoff

I believe RCBS or Huntington will make you a die for any cartridge that you could dream up and are willing to pay for- so will Redding. However, I have a set of .270 dies for the Lyman 310 tool, with which I could neck-size 6.5X54mm cases for a wildcat .270X54mm (or should we call it the "6.8X54mm")? Yes, that's more like it!

"Special Order Dies - We make many more dies than what is listed in our standard catalog. For more information call our Customer Service Department and ask for our Special Order Catalog. A .14 Flea? Got it. A 577-500 Nitro Express? No problem.

RCBS Customer Service 605 Oro Dam Blvd.
Oroville, CA 95965 For more information, call 1-800-533-5000 between 6:30 AM and 4:00 PM, Pacific time, Monday through Friday.

I think I would look at the reboring/rifling to 7mm. CH4D dies makes a die set labeled 7x54. I`m not sure if this is the one needed but "Dastardly Dave" can sure make any die set you want/need cheaper and quicker than Huntingtons!Just a thought. Bullet selection is better than the 270 too. As you may remember, Bell switched to a 7mm when the 6.5 MS gave him trouble. As the Mannlicher/Schonauers also were made in 9mm the 7mm ought[?] to feed good too. Good luck with a neat project. Too bad the bores on these old Greeks are , for the most part, badly taken care of.

Aloha, Mark

quote:

Originally posted by Bohica:
I think I would look at the reboring/rifling to 7mm. CH4D dies makes a die set labeled 7x54. I`m not sure if this is the one needed but "Dastardly Dave" can sure make any die set you want/need cheaper and quicker than Huntingtons!Just a thought. Bullet selection is better than the 270 too. As you may remember, Bell switched to a 7mm when the 6.5 MS gave him trouble. As the Mannlicher/Schonauers also were made in 9mm the 7mm ought[?] to feed good too. Good luck with a neat project. Too bad the bores on these old Greeks are , for the most part, badly taken care of.Aloha, Mark

Perhaps. But there is a limit to the diameter of the bullet you can neck up to without having to alter the magazine spool, even with the same case. The front ends of the cartridge spaces on the magazine rotor are cut for a specific caliber, and I don't know exactly how generous that cut is, as to whether a 7mm bullet could be used without having to alter that spool. If it could, then I agree a 7mm would be better, since I am not really sure if going from .266" to .277" groove diameter would completely clean up the old bore-probably not. But a .284" would permit you to bore out the whole .266" diameter to a .276" bore, then rifle it .004" deep on each side.

Thanks,

Lot's of good ideas. I did use 6.5 Carcano brass when 6.5MS brass was hard to come by.

I like the idea of a 6.8 X 54 or a 7 x 54.

Geoff

Just as a thought, what would it cost to get a new 6.5 barrel made up to the proper contour and installed on this rifle? You could get it with the standard 6.5 size and use regular 6.5 bullets and end up with proper head stamped brass and avoid more expensive custom dies. This could also avoid the need to tinker with the magazine spool. I'd bet all this would get done a lot faster too.

Just me thinking out loud here...

Aloha Tex,

You're absolutely correct. It would be a push financially. However, as I previously stated, many of us suffer from the "gun syndrome" and are constantly looking for silly ways to spend our money on ilogical projects. It is all justified in that we end up with something "different" for better or worse.

There are far better rifles better suited for my hunting needs in my existing collection. However, when you're partial to an old clunker, it's like taking your old dog to the vet for his check up and walking out with a $300 bill and being thankful that nothing was wrong with him.

Regards and thanks for this invigorating discussion.

Geoff

quote:

Originally posted by geoff:
Thanks,

Lot's of good ideas. I did use 6.5 Carcano brass when 6.5MS brass was hard to come by.

I like the idea of a 6.8 X 54 or a 7 x 54.

Geoff

Well, I prepared a dummy cartridge using a Norma 6.5X54 case and a Remington 7mm 175-grain PSPCL bullet. When I got my M/S back from the gunsmith yesterday, I tried this "7X54 M/S" to see if the magazine spool would accept it, and feed O.K. It did! So I now know that this rifle could be rebored for this wildcat, and the magazine would be O.K. I don't know whether this would apply to ALL 6.5 M/S Greek milsurps, but would not be surprised.

I also test-fired two rounds of ammo loaded with Sierra 160-grain bullets and 42 grains of RE 22. They were satisfactory. The primer pockets remained tight, and the case mouths expanded enough that a new bullet dropped freely into the cases. I reloaded the two cases with a Lyman 310-tool 6.5 Jap die set. I also loaded 20 more rounds of the same stuff, and will chrono this load, as well as test this rifle for accuracy, before deciding whether or not to rebore the barrel. I like the idea of reboring, because I just hate "dark bores", even if they shoot O.K. But it takes forever to get a rebore job completed, and I am not sure I want to spend any more money on this old rifle!

quote:

Originally posted by Tex21:
Just as a thought, what would it cost to get a new 6.5 barrel made up to the proper contour and installed on this rifle? You could get it with the standard 6.5 size and use regular 6.5 bullets and end up with proper head stamped brass and avoid more expensive custom dies. This could also avoid the need to tinker with the magazine spool. I'd bet all this would get done a lot faster too.

Just me thinking out loud here...

Tex, you are right of course. A new barrel probably would not cost any more than a rebore job. Plus which you'd probably get it back this year, not in 2007!!

However, mine at least would not need any magazine work, as my "dummy" has shown.

Does anyone know of a barrel maker who will turn a rebore job in a reasonable time like 3-4 months?

Matt Norman, also of AR, has queried me on finding a barrel maker for rebores. Your recommedations, please.

Geoff

quote:

Originally posted by geoff:
Does anyone know of a barrel maker who will turn a rebore job in a reasonable time like 3-4 months?

Matt Norman, also of AR, has queried me on finding a barrel maker for rebores. Your recommedations, please. Geoff

I for one sure don't! ALL the GOOD rebore guys I know of have so much work, their waiting lists are a couple of years long! There may be some, but I don't know who they are!

Well, I finally got out to the range with my Greek M/S to test fire it with the ammo I had loaded, a .264" Sierra 160-grain round nose softpoint with 42 grains of RE22 in Norma cases. Fired 4 rounds @ 50 yards, and all four keyholed!

So I came home and did what I should have done to begin with, I slugged the bore. According to my slug, this rifle has a .272" groove diameter and a .262" land! No wonder it won't spin a .264" bullet! As a matter of fact, there are NO bullets I am aware of that are just right for these bore dimensions. But I ordered some of the new Hornady .268" bullets, and will try them to see if they will make round holes before I have to rebore or rebarrel this piece! It sure functions and shoots nicely. Too bad the bullets have to fly sideways!!

Good luck with the new bullets ! And don't forget to report back once you've tried them. :-)

Carcano

quote:

Originally posted by carcano91:
Good luck with the new bullets ! And don't forget to report back once you've tried them. :-)

Carcano

I will. And before I give up completely, I may contact Corbin or someone and seek a swaging die that will make .271" or .272" bullets out of those Sierra 160-.264" dia. ones. It's OK to swage a bullet UP as opposed to down, as the jacket will not separate from the core.

Couple of quick comments. I've been playing with a 9x56 for several years now and I think some of my discoveries may be helpful.
From my reading MS bores actually vary quite a bit.
My bore is actually .354 and I have been swaging .358 bullets down. It actually takes two steps with the second swaging die actually measuring about .352. Swaging die from CH. The bullets tend to spring back. Have done Nosler, Hornady and Sierra. Easiest is Sierra. Nosler partitions are difficult. No jacket seperation that I have been able to discern.
Overall length is critical and bullets should be crimped. Recoil can push the cartridges in the the spool forward and jam up the spool.
Before I would be certain that the larger diameter neck/bullet combination feeds properly make up enough dummy rounds to assure everything works with a full magazine. The side clearence as the spool rotates can be tight.
Good luck.

Thanks for your very welcome addition, Dian1.

Carcano

Its academic now with a .272 bore but .264 is so close to .277 that a normal rebore isn't practical. You need a bigger cut than that for the reamer to run true. The option in your case, if you can get someone to do it is to multiple-pass cut your grooves to a full .277 and then cut the lands to a reasonable bore diameter. That's how they rebore double rifles. Costs a lot more than some bullet swaging dies, though.

Wow, .272 is a substantial overbore. Swaging bullets up, sounds like an interesting alternative. Will continue monitoring your posts with great interest.

Geoff

Have you maybe read the article on the 6,5x53R and 6,5x54 MS in "Handloader's Digest"? Good info there.

Carcano

quote:

Originally posted by dian1:
Swaging die from CH. The bullets tend to spring back. Have done Nosler, Hornady and Sierra. Easiest is Sierra. Nosler partitions are difficult. No jacket seperation that I have been able to discern.

Overall length is critical and bullets should be crimped. Recoil can push the cartridges in the the spool forward and jam up the spool.

Before I would be certain that the larger diameter neck/bullet combination feeds properly make up enough dummy rounds to assure everything works with a full magazine. The side clearence as the spool rotates can be tight. Good luck.

The springback phenomenon is something that apparently happens when you go from a larger bullet to a smaller one, but not when you are INCREASING diameter, like swaging up from .264" or .268" to .272".

RE: Magazine problems: I made up four dummy rounds using necked-up 6.5X54mm brass and .284" Remington 175-grain PSPCL bullets. These dummies worked through my magazine just fine - for some reason, it is generous on the front end of the spool, but not the rear - it will NOT accept .468" (.22/250) head diameter cases. Too bad, too, as these rifles would make great .250 Savages!!

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
Its acedemic now with a .272 bore but .264 is so close to .277 that a normal rebore isn't practical. You need a bigger cut than that for the reamer to run true. The option in your case, if you can get someone to do it is to multiple-pass cut your grooves to a full .277 and then cut the lands to a reasonable bore diameter. That's how they rebore double rifles. Costs a lot more than some bullet swaging dies, though.

Tigger - Yeah, that's what I was thinking too-the bore won't clean up to rerifle at .277" - .278". But how about 7mm (.284")? Mine will feed dummy rounds with .284" bullets...... So we're talking a "7X54mm Mannlicher/Schoenauer", using 6.5X54mm brass necked up. This would involve reboring to .276 from .272", then rerifling to .284" groove. How much extra material does one need? Is 0.004" enough? I feel like this is a very small margin...

quote:

Originally posted by carcano91:
Have you maybe read the article on the 6,5x53R and 6,5x54 MS in "Handloader's Digest"? Good info there.

Carcano

No - which edition is it in? I have three or four editions, but have not consulted them on this project yet....

I think each individual reborer will have his own answer about the exact minimum. Cliff LaBounty said he could not take a standard 270 to .284 when I asked about it. I wouldn't think .272 to .284 would change his mind.

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
I think each individual reborer will have his own answer about the exact minimum. Cliff LaBounty said he could not take a standard 270 to .284 when I asked about it. I wouldn't think .272 to .284 would change his mind.

Thanks! It's beginning to look more & more like a rebarrel job rather than a rebore.....

Dear Geoff and Eldeguello,
Dies could be made easily by CH4D dies. Dave [owner] is a hoot to work with as he`ll do just about anything you want. The barrel could be rebored/rifled by the guy who does mine in S.D. I believe. Norm Johnson. He has done a few for me since my old friend Dick Nickel died. His work is great and the turn-a-round isn`t too bad either. I would also consider the 7mm as a possible too. For one thing better bullet selection. Hope this helps a bit.

Aloha, Mark

Norman Johnson
243 14th Ave NW
Turtle Lake, N.D. 58575
[701]448-9188

quote:

Originally posted by Bohica:
Dear Geoff and Eldeguello,
Dies could be made easily by CH4D dies. Dave [owner] is a hoot to work with as he`ll do just about anything you want. The barrel could be rebored/rifled by the guy who does mine in S.D. I believe. Norm Johnson. He has done a few for me since my old friend Dick Nickel died. His work is great and the turn-a-round isn`t too bad either. I would also consider the 7mm as a possible too. For one thing better bullet selection. Hope this helps a bit.

Aloha, Mark

Norman Johnson
243 14th Ave NW
Turtle Lake, N.D. 58575
[701]448-9188

Hey Mark! Thanks for the information! As I mentioned, my magazine will work with the M/S 54mm cases necked up and holding 7mm bullets, so a rebore to "7X54mm Mannlicher/Schoenauer" is a feasible alternative.

Aloha Mark,

Thanks for the referral. I will contact him and also refer him to Matt Norman also of this forum.

Geoff

Well, the .268" Hornady 160-grain roundnose bullets arrived yesterday, and I've got ten test rounds loaded up to see if they'll stay nose-forward! But it's raining like hell right now, so the test will have to wait a day or so. Will report results.

Test report on the .268"ers! Tried them today - they were point-on @ 50 yards, but several of them keyholed by the time they got to 100 yards - this bore is definitely not worth fooling with.

In the interim, I managed to acquire another one that has good rifling, and I discovered that it has MUCH tighter bore dimensions than the first one. This "new one" shoots .264" bullets quite accurately (about 2" @ 100 yards for 5 shots-160-grain Sierra, 42 grains RE 22- V@ 10' = 2230 FPS). In addition, the cases fired in this example will barely permit a .268" bullet to be slipped into the case. Obviously this one has a much tigher chamber neck than the other one as well as a smaller bore/groove diameter.

The only reasonable cure for the crappy one appears to be a new/different barrel.

As an oddball question:

Would it be possible to cut a larger throat in the .272 barrel and use .277 bullets? Would .005" be too much of a squeeze?

quote:

Originally posted by Tex21:
As an oddball question:

Would it be possible to cut a larger throat in the .272 barrel and use .277 bullets? Would .005" be too much of a squeeze?

Not a bad question at all. As a matter of fact, I had precisely the same thought. I recall an incident reported in The American Rifleman back in the 1950's in which some guy rechambered a Japanese 6.5mm Arisaka to .30/'06, with no other change - he left the bore original!! When he shot it, contrary to conventional wisdom, all that happened was that the .308" bullet was squeezed down to 6.5mm. The gun did not disintegrate. I have since learned that the key to shooting oversized bullets is to have a chamber neck large enough that the case freely releases the bullet on firing. The energy required to swage the bullet down is pretty small-and peak pressure doesn't occur until the bullet is a least 4 or 5 inches down the bore. So yes, I believe your suggestion would work. But I am not convinced there's enough rifling left to spin a bullet even under these condiditon. I don't have a bore scope, so can't inspect it minutely. But it looks pretty sorry just squinting into the muzzle and the breech!

Hi All!
I tried the 6.5x54 necked up to 7mm a long time ago. It worked in the rifle I had. The reboring/rifling[done by Dick Nickel] cleaned up the original lands nd the reboring worked fine. This was one ONE rifle and I cannot guarantee it`ll work on all as there is so much variations in the rifle-to-rifle QA. The thread dimensions on the the 1903 Greek are 1.060/12V TPI thus making any 6.5 barrel made for a Large Ring Mauser a prospect. Mauser being 1.100/12V TPI. The shank on the Greek is about .790 or about .165 longer so no big deal, push the shoulder forward, turn down the threads 1.060 and rethread to depth. The only bitch-kitty is the double slots for the bolt head. It has been a long time since I did one but it takes time. Thus an A&B barrel from Midway can be used. This is the cheapest way I know of. Hope this helps.

Aloha, Mark