Only the cheap synthetic stocks have plastic in them.Mcmillans are made of fibreglass and are a quality product.

Jeff, I've lived all my life believing God intended guns to be made of wood and steel. PERIOD. I still believe this.

But I don't think He counts it a sin to have a good fiberglass stock. I have ONE rifle with a fiberglass stock and have gotten over the unnatural feel of touching it.

My philosophy is this: If a guy's hunting conditions and climate are so harsh that wood is impractical, then he SHOULD have a fiberglass stock. No sense abusing a good piece of wood for no reason. JMHO

[ 12-21-2002, 10:05: Message edited by: Pecos45 ]

I've had wood stocked rifles that never seemed to change POI and remained consistent for as long as I owned them. Most wouldn't.

I've also owned fiberglass stocks that would move, twist, and change POI for you in a heartbeat. I had a rifle with a Brown Precision stock that would move if you hunted with it in hot, sunny weather. You could actually see the forend move slightly as it warmed.

The most consistent stocks I own and have owned are from McMillan. I've never had one of these shift or in any way change, and I've used them in all weather conditions in a dozen states and several foreign countries. They're strong, too.

AD

Maybe I've been lucky but I've owned & used walnut, fiberglass and injection-molded and never had any of them shift due to either weather or travel.

Generally I take a synthetic if I know it's going to be wet, and I most likely would do so if I were going way up in mountains with a lot of potential for severe gouges or taking a fall.

After resisting it for years I am now thinking of building a rifle in a laminate stock -- I was very dissatisfied with how noisy one of my fiberglass stocks was in the woods this fall.

John

JeffP---

It's VERY common to have a factory wood stock change POI. The wood is usually still wet AND totally unsealed to the elements.

For that reason, if you're going to buy a NEW gun from one of the major manufacturers a synthetic will probably be more stable right out of the box.

Once a rifle spends a couple or more years in a gun safe, without having more water introduced to it, it'll usually be just as stable as any synthetic .....after it's well sealed and finished.

The problem is that the gun manufacturers don't cull out the blanks with bad, weak, or unstable grain lay-out. These stocks were bad when they were made and nothing is going to fix them.

The truth of the matter is that wood has become too expensive and the skill level to make them has dropped in the factories to the point that wood has gained a bad reputation.

Wednesday I watched a gunstore clerk remove 6 rifles from their boxes and wipe them down and put the price tags on them. NONE of them had a usuable wood stock. It was a waste of pallet lumber to make those stocks to begin with and I can well imagine the poor customer that has to battle changing POI and bad groups until the stocks are replaced.......and six more shooters that think plastic is better than wood as a general statement. It's a shame.

I don't own a sythetic stocked rifle.....and that ain't half the story... I won't.

Good wood is better than good plastic. Bad plastic is better than bad wood.

Jack, your logic is based mostly on cosmetics, and defies chemistry and physics.

AD

Jack like many others seems to lump all synthetic stocks together whether they are cheap plastic or quality fibreglass like mcmillan.That makes no more sense than lumping a properly prepared walnut stock in with a factory birch stock.

I have 3 synthetic stocked Rugers and I have never had any problems with them. They all shoot awesome in any condition. Guess it depends on where you hunt, but i do not want to drag a nice glossy fancy stock through the brush and snow. I do have wood stocks too though. I am buying a Richards Microfit stock for my old .06
Check out their website, several lam colors and options to choose from, or you could go with all the different walnut options too.

JeffP,

I have had a wood stock move because of a forearm taking a long time to adjust but it was not due to the weather. The blank was cured, but the removal of the adjacent wood obviously changed the strenght to resist those forces present. It happens but with a good seasoned stock it is rare. As Malm so aptly stated, a lot of off the rack stocks are not seasoned properly, nor well sealed.

As far as weather, I have never had a rifle shift POI and that was after spending a week or so in the rain. It has also not done any damage to the outside finish. Of course it was Idaho rain which is of course not as wet as those rains on the west coast or in Alaska.

I may be accused of a bias but it based on experience. And my experience says that wood will do a good job for you. You have to wonder how those guys 40 years ago managed to shoot anything in those wet climates?

I think that synthetic stocks are a real boon for the firearms industry. The fill a gap and correct some problems created by bad wood/workmanship in the industry today. The factory stock could be sealed at a lot less money but it would involve some personal know how, but not much.

[ 12-22-2002, 05:13: Message edited by: Customstox ]

Sealed wood is ok, but to be absolutely sure go with the synthetic. Going from CT to Alaska, and guessing on your hunt of a lifetime and depending on where in Alaska, put on the synthetic. Or you could look at it as an opportunity to get a new rifle in SS and a sythetic stock. I mean you're spending a pile of money anyway, so, if you can, spend some more. The other half has already said it's ok to go.

JeffP: How many here who have had a really nice wood stock made for their rifle,have 0 POI change...

No one I know when you really grill them. Back when Termite Food(aka wood) was the only thing available - we used it because we had to. Sometimes they were fine in changing weather conditions and sometimes not.

The only way to make wood completely stable is to totally encase it in good old plastic, fiberglas, kevlar or any synthetic. Then you have a club that is too heavy to be useful.

Had a guy I hunted with who's stock moved a good bit during the long Carolina Season. We had to track a whole lot of poorly shot Deer for him. No fault of his shooting though. A few of us got together, chipped in and got him an old Ramline plastic stock. Strong as an anvil, had a laughable basketweave pattern and shot MOA from the beginning - without changing POI!

Burned his Termite Food stock and had some Liquid Corn to celebrate. At that point, the burning wood was indeed beautiful!

JeffP: I love the look of wood but can it be sealed to withstand Alaska conditions?

Yes, if you leave it in the house and never shoot it. If on the other hand you intend to hunt with it, No!

JeffP: I hear the pro old world craftsman who
say a properly inletted and sealed wood stock will not change POI but what have the guys who take them in the field experience?

People who like and/or sell Termite Food stocks tend to be a bit over optimistic about that. I do agree that some wood is absolutely beautiful to look at - indoors. But for hunting, give me the good old, warm-polished feel and great looking character of home-grown plastic.

JeffP: ...IF wood can hold up to harsh coditions.

Best of luck to you.

Regardless of how good wood stocks may be, Alaska weather will change your mind pretty fast on how you feel about it. Yes, sometimes you may spend a couple of weeks here and not have any problem with wood stocks, but that is not the case if you spend enough time hunting. I do believe that sometimes there are exceptions as some have mentioned, but....

Some years I have hunted under beautiful and warm weather where there is not moisture at all, while I often have hunted under light rain. In September (where I hunt) the ambient temperatures range from 50 to 70 degrees during the day, and around 20 to 35 degrees during the night. Moisture will condensate on the rifle, and often I have to clean it to remove snow and rain from the action. Sometimes I can see rust building-up on the crown of my hunting partner's "blued" rifle. His rifle has a wood stock, and it changes POI within a few hours of exposure to moisture.

My "stainless/synthetic" does not change POI to the point I can tell. For Alaska hunting (if you live here and hunt often) this is the best combination. For me this is the way to go.

Ray about said it all on the wood/synthetic debate. If you will be hunting in variable weather conditions particularly were it can be very wet such as AK why would you risk your hard earned hunt on a wood stock. Buy a good quality synthetic and have it bedded by someone with talent.

The Rimrock stock is my favorite but I have had zero problems with Clifton and Brown Precision. I had a McMillan split lenghtwise on a 458. Perhaps it was the bedding. They did stand behind it and gave me a new stock once I sent them my broken one.

I do have 3 wood stocked rifles that have been carefully finished and sealed but I'll reserve those for Africa and Texas.

I use to hunt with 2 guys that had factory wood stocked 338's. Their rifles POI often times would move a foot from one range session to the other. On one occasion my friend shot his gun dry at a broadside caribou at 150 yd. and never hit it. The gun was shooting inch groups 3 days before. Later at the range it wasn't on the paper at 100 yd. Oh! He finally shot the caribou with my 340 Weathermark and seemed suprised that the bullet hit exactly were he had aimed.

There is nothing quite like the warmth of a wood stock on a cold, dark night. Depending on the type of wood it is, it should burn for a couple of hours...


Malm

Malm, that does it, you are off my Christmas card list. Actually the more people buy this crap about them not being able to be sealed the more wood is available for me.

[ 12-23-2002, 23:51: Message edited by: Customstox ]

Come on Chic, one more chance please???

Here goes,

Wood stocks are... Well, you know that some wood stocks, er, don't they use wood in Holland for shoes, and why not for, well, and it burns good, Damn it! I just can't do it. I tried...

Happy holidays to you anyway!

Malm

SIMPLE, I display some of my getter rifles in the wood they came in, then slap them puppies in good old glass reinforced hydro carbon resin when its time to go to work.

The guns I use the most are tools and the finishes and stock choices reflect that fact.

BTW, my answer to the rifle as a musical instrument, was to fill the stocks with low expansion foam in a can. A 4 dollar can will fill 5 or 6 stocks.If the rifle in question has any balance issues, drop a few .50 cl round balls in as you fill the butt. 20 in the butt of my 700 7mm mag totally changed the balance point.

Most of the bad experiences associated with POI shifts with wood stocks is due to the fact that people are trying to apply forearm pressure. If the barrel is free-floated, in most cases, it will not have any appreciable shift in the POI, providing that the rest of the action is bedded properly.
I haven't had the opportunity to hunt the great state of Alaska yet, but have paid my dues in bad weather conditions in Western Oregon. 7 weeks of solid, nonstop rain will damn well let you know if your wood stock will hold up, and the answer is yes. When properly sealed, a good piece of wood can go neck and neck with the best kevlars or fiberglass stocks in every hunting condition conceivable. I've hunted and owned both, and the only nice thing I can say about the fiberglass is the fact that when you drop into a clearcut that's about five years old, and covered with blackberrry vines and sal al, it's nice to have something to beat the brush out of your way It's kind of a shame to mess up a nice piece of bastogne or english on some scrub brush, but when the temperature drops below freezing, it's definitely nice to wrap your hands around wood, not plastic or fiberglass.

Chic,
Did you see the artical in Field & Stream about Jerry Fisher? In it he says "The average guy can get screwed buying his own wood. A good but unexceptional English walnut blank costs $1000. A really nice one will cost twice that much, and the cream of the crop can cost $3000 before a tool is laid on it. If Jerry is buying wood for his customers and charging $1000 for an "unexceptional blank" you begin to wonder who's screwing who?
The artical also states that most of the guns he builds are kept in safes and not hunted with. No wonder with $1000 plus blanks and 300 man hours labor. Stocks like that are a work of art and belong in a safe.
Heck, my rifles with $300 blanks and 100 hours labor stay in the safe and I hunt with a ratty old Brown Precision stocked rifles. Pete

PS. I did get enough strength back to hunt at the end of deer season, and score. I'am doing quite well, thank you.

Pete,
First matters first. I am happy to hear you are feeling better and had a good hunt. Life is not much without our health. Hope to see you in the middle fork soon chasing up those steep ones.

Jerry Fisher will not stock a rifle for a customer using the customer's wood. I don't know all of his reasons but I do know he feels like he should be making the profit on the sale of the wood. Some people do their business that way. I have seen a lot more $1000 wood that is incredible than those that are otherwise. Jerry is a very interesting guy, very skilled and very opinionated and not the least bit shy about giving you his opinion. He is also willing to share his knowledge and pat you on the back when you deserve it. The year I did the guild rifle he came to my table and complemented me on the work and I was walking a foot off the ground all day.

I do not share his view of wood salesmen (wood hawks to him) but I am not in the position to stock $30,000 worth of blanks. Nor do I have his clientele. Just as well I suspect.

[ 12-25-2002, 00:28: Message edited by: Customstox ]

A good wood stock is hard to pass up on looks but when it comes to hard every day hunting the syn stocks have my nod. I have had a ruger no1 change pt of impact on be because the wood in the forearm swelled. I'll take stainless and Syn any day over wood for hard going.

I love wood, I'm putting a wood thumb-hole on my 22BR.

I got the wood from Western Gunstocks. Its California Claro; seasoned 20+ years. Wood is actually darker than pic, flash lightened it up.

http://mywebpages.comcast.net/stanmyers/stockright.jpg

Stan in Ar---

That's a VERY well laid out blank. Seal it well and it'll hold zero.