I've always been facinated by Mannlicher rifles of old, and fancy the idea of having one built.
I've seen them built with the bolt handle in the standard place, as well as the handle in the middle of the bolt.
I favor the looks of the handle in the middle, but must assume the cost to modify a Mauser action would be expensive. Can it even be done?
Any ideas on a suitable alternative? A carcano perhaps? Aren't these 'middle handle' actions, of Mannlicher origin?
I can live with the bolt in the standard place, and use a Mauser action.
Also, who sells Mannlicher stocks, either walnut or laminated?
And what would be a good double set trigger to use? Will the original Mauser trigger guard work with a double trigger? Thanks. ~~~Suluuq

[ 01-31-2003, 15:15: Message edited by: Rusty Gunn ]

The rifles with the bolt handle in the middle are original Mannlichers. Placing the torque in the middle of the bolt prevents binding. The original Mannlicher-Schoenauers have a bolt tension spring on the right side, making the action ultra smooth. The military actions do not have this feature, and the magazine spool is for a 6.5x54 case only.

The rear bridge must be split for a bolt to have the handle in the center. Modifying a mauser would be a lot of work. Nice mannlichers start at around $1000 and would be less expensive than thring to modify a mauser.

Double set trigger must be inletted into the bottom metal and secured. If you keep the 98 trigger guard you will be disappointed, as there is little room for your finger. Removing it and installing a shotgun style guard is the preferred method.

[ 01-31-2003, 17:20: Message edited by: KurtC ]

Rusty, it should not be impossible to locate an original Mannlicher-Schoenauer at a gunshow or in a gunshop somewhere. I think they were manufactured right up until the early to mid-sixties. At least that would give you the action you are looking for. The idea of attempting to convert a Mauser action (if that is what you intended) sounds a bit strange to me...

Whether you'd want to convert an original Mannlicher-Schoenauer is another matter. They came both with full and half stocks.

Mannlicher-Schoenauers had a good reputation in the early decades of last century - the 6.5x54 became the epitomy of a mountain hunting cartridge in those days. I'm not sure how easy it is to find brass for the 6.5x54?? But they also came in a ton of other chamberings, .30-06 etc etc.

The rifles often (only?) came with a "butter knife" bolt handle. Very stylish - if not the best to operate quickly. The rifles certainly have charisma, that is for sure.

Drawbacks now: Because of the split bridge, they are hard to find mounts for. Although it may look neat with the bolt-handle in the middle of the bolt, be aware that this means that more mass is set into motion when a shot is fired. Result: harder to shoot accurately from the bench. The "spool" magazine (a special on these actions) tends to make the wood in the area of magazine thin'ish. This is a potential weakness, stock breakages in this area are not unheard of.

If you have not worked with set triggers (in particular double set triggers) before, try them out before you invest a fortune. They are an acquired taste. In a hunting situation many people consider them a drawback - if not a downright security risk.

All in all a very famous rifle. Be aware of the design parameters.
Best of luck - mike

[ 01-31-2003, 22:14: Message edited by: mho ]

Having re-read your post, I have come to the conclusion that what you are really looking for is a fully stocked rifle - built on a Mauser, Mannlicher-Schoenauer or any other number of actions. Americans tend to call fully stocked rifles "Mannlichers". In Europe, that name is reserved for Mannlicher-Schoenauers or (later) Steyr-Mannlichers rifles.

In principle you can build a fully stocked rifle on any old action. E.g. Sako used to offer them as a standard item. Steyr-Mannlicher (great rifles!), Sauer and a number of other European makers still offer this stock type. In Europe, in particular the Steyr-Mannlicher still has an excellent reputation for accuracy and good workmanship - plus their rifles are amongst the prettiest ever made.

Bedding a full length stock and ensuring the forearm does not bend, are problem areas in these great looking guns. In the past (now?), the forearm was often fixed to the barrel with a screw.

Make sure you work with a gunsmith who knows what he is doing. Fully stocked rifles are probably harder to get to shoot than rifles with a regular forearm. Not impossible, but sometimes tricky.

Cheers - mike

Suluuq,

There is a Manlicher Schonauer 243 in a local shop, tagged @ $200, but it's been on the rack for awhile. I'd thought about getting it and turning it into either a 260 or 358, but have heard that the magazine mods are pretty involved for caliber changes. As I recall it has the std bolt.

The magazine spool has a side for each cartridge. If you are converting it to a cartridge that is based on the same parent case, then you only have to relieve the areas that touch the shoulder and neck. It is when trying to convert to a case that is longer than the original that it gets complicated.

.243 to .358 is easier than a 6.5x54 to a .30-06

If what you really want is a Mannlicher-style stock -- i.e., a stock whose forestock extends to the muzzle of the rifle -- Ruger has built some of its Model 77 rifles in that style, and you should be able to get one of those without difficulty. If you want a true Mannlicher-Schoenauer rifle, then check out www.gunsamerica.com There's a category there for those rifles.

Check out CZ! Both the 550 and 527 models have a full stock version. Plenty of calibers too; all the way from .22 Hornet to 9.3x62. They're available from TheGunSource for just over $500.

[ 02-01-2003, 08:23: Message edited by: Pre64 ]

Rusty

Surely you've seen that lovely CZ 550 9.3x62 full stock with the 20" barrel. It might be the best bargain in the rifle world today. If you want a Steyr- Mannlicher full stock they can be found on the Auction Arms website for about $1400 to $1600 these days. Mostly in '06 , .308 , .243 etc. Our AR buddy KurtC seems to have access to a lot of these treasures also. I've always been drawn to the full stock euro rifles also, and when finances allow I will sieze the day!! Haveing done the math, I have come to the conclusion that a $1500 used Steyr Manlicher will probably be a finer rifle than one I could have built for $1500.And I've always been a Steyr Fan anyways!

Some day,Buddy I'm gonna get me one of those!

What ever became of your stainless .376 Project?

Best Regards!

Elmo

P.S. Hey KurtC... what have you got in your "full stock" closet these days?

Rusty,
For the ultimate in a Manlicher then get a Brno M-22F in 7x57, 7x64, or 8x57...I see them in the Gunlist for about $1000 give or take a hundred dollar bill...They have double square bridges on a small ring Mauser 98 commercial with double set triggers, spoon bolt, and all the trimmings....Probably the finest example of rifle building by a factory in the history of gun manufacturers and better than most custom rifles...Alf has some Brnos posted on the African section as I recall.....

Elmo,
Right now the only full stock rifles that aren't spoken for are a Brno 98 in 9.3x62 and an older Brno 22f in 7x64 (waiting for a Jaeger side mount). The 9.3 is posted on AA.
I've got a Mannlicher-Schoenauer 1952 in 9.3x62, waiting for a nice stock. I should have a Voere 98 in 9.3x64 soon, but that is a half stock.

Hey Ray
How do you feel about double set triggers?

Hey KurtC
Tell me about Voere Rifles.
I've only seen one in person. It was an '06 and it was a very nice rifle. I believe they are/were made in Austria. Give us the scoop on Voeres.

By the way, I just bought a Leupold scoped Redhawk off of AuctionArms, so my toy account is busted for six months or so. But when my piggybank gets a little fat I'll check back up on you!

Best Regards

Elmo

Voere in Kufstein, Austria has been making nice rifles on the 98 action for a long time. I'll post some pics when I get the rifle.

Elmo, don't know if you are aware of this, if yes, just ignore this post. Voere was a smaller, but respected Austrian arms manufacturer. I believe they went out of business a couple of years back, not sure whether the business has been resurrected?

Voere rifles used to be sold in the US about a decade ago under the KDF label (company in TX, I believe). KDF used to market the rifles with an MOA accuracy guarantee.

Nice looking action, very smooth lines.

A bunch of European rifle makers have been struggling or even gone bust in the later years. Selling into a mature market with ever tightening gun-laws has not helped. But what really pushed many of them over the edge, was the introduction of the Blaser R93. That product took Blaser from being a niche player to being the DOMINANT factor in many of the European markets. Steyr-Mannlicher used to be the market leader, now they are an also-ran, Heym went broke (back in business, I believe), Voere went broke, Kricho (sp?) went broke - the list goes on.

Back to the original subject: fully stocked rifles. Personally I'm a bit hesitant about Brnos. Very servicable rifles, but mostly the safety works differently to other rifles. Steyr-Mannlicher though remains a favorite, so I'll join the chorus in recommending those. Later models of Steyrs were made without those pesky double set triggers, at least their single set trigger is more useable! (OK, ok opinionated, I know ). Expensive rifles, but nice! Few fully stocked rifles come straight from the box with the accuracy of a Steyr-Mannlicher. As others have pointed out, the .308 cartridge family is well represented in factory guns. The better version in my mind is the "Luxury" - avoids the pesky (plastic) spool magazine, and has a nice, tang located safety catch. New models (they changed their action in an attempt to compete with Blaser a few years back), did away with the rotary magazine altogether and went to the tang located safety on all models. Models from the last decade often sport the nice rounded "pigs back" stock form, whereas earlier models had gory Monte Carlos.

Check
Steyr Classic
for a picture. If you click on "Full Stock", there is even a picture of a fully stocked rifle.

Steyr-Mannlicher are now imported into the US by Dynamit Nobel (used to be Gun South).

While on trivia: fully stocked rifles (known as Mannlichers in the States) are called "Stutzen" in German.
- mike

[ 02-01-2003, 12:20: Message edited by: mho ]

Actually, "Monte-Carlo" is a style of cheekpiece and "hogs-back" is a style of comb.

Cheekpieces (Backe)

1. Monte-Carlo: "Goudy" teardrop style popularized in the late '50s, still used on US made rifles and current Sakos.

2. Bayerische: "Bavarian" square style found on many European rifles and AV type Sakos.

3. Deutscher: "German" oval style found on most pre-war European rifles, current Steyr-Mannlichers and classic English express rifles.

Combs (Rucken)

1. geradem-rucken: Straight comb as used on current US made rifles.

2. schweinsrucken: "Hogs-back" as used on many current European rifles.

3. klassischer: classic low straight comb as used on pre-war US and European rifles.

I've seen examples of each type of cheekpiece used with each style of comb. Some look natural, some combinations look odd.

Wow, an unexpected amount of responces! Thanks.
I'll check into used 'Mannlicher' rifles, as this is a viable way to obtain one, short of having one made (an idea I'll still entertain).
I am aware of both Sako's and Ruger's, as I've two friends with them. Nice, but I'd prefer something else.
I've tried a single-set trigger, dry firing on snap-caps once, and I've seen how double set triggers work. Yes, I figured they'd take some getting used to, especially after using regular triggers my whole life.

Question on these triggers... once I've set the "hair" trigger, how do I "un-set" it? Can it be done, or am I now required to shoot it to remove the set?
And of lifting the bolt handle to remove a cartridge... can it be done after setting?
And of using the safety, can it safely be used during setting, both to put "on safe" and to "fire"?

Of the stock design... I did a search, and read the info on bedding these types of stocks, and do know they amy take some work to shoot right, but it can be done. I don't mind trying.

I was looking at my Mauser yesterday, and it does seem possible to alter it to mid-bolt design. The rear bridge can be split to allow the handle to slip though, the bridge front (nearest where the extractor slides through) can be cut back, as if to allow a longer cartridge to be inserted in the magazine, but actually allow for more space for the handle, and the rear quarter-inch of the extractor shortened to make room for the bolt handle to be welded on. This don't seem to be much work involved, but may be pricy.

Elmo... 376? I've put this one on hold, since it's my understanding Charles Daly hasn't yet imported any stainless actions, at least it was this way last month. I've also parted with my dies and brass, to folks who need them more then I do at this point. I still plan on owning one someday. I may just use a stainless Ruger for this project, but who knows...

~~~Suluuq

Rusty Gunn,

Set triggers come in several designs. Most Double Set Triggers operate seperate from the bolt safety, so the safety can be applied while you unset the trigger. Modern single set triggers, such as the Kepplinger and the one used on the Brno 98, usually unset when the bolt safety is applied. I don't believe the CZ550 works this way.

If you need any help locating a Mannlicher-Schoenauer or a full stock 98, send me an e-mail and I'll try to point you in the right direction.

Easy now, Lloyd. Take it easy there buddy.

You got to be carefull when you call a man's children ugly!

By the way, does your monkey do any tricks?

Elmo

Rusty -- if you make it down to Anchorage, go to Great Northwest Guns and check out the CZ's. I was there yesterday evening fondling them. The full-stocked 9.3X62 and 6.5X55 had the best (non-lawyer) triggers I've encountered in a box-stock rifle in 20 years. They are also single-set -- push the triger forward, and it sets. Very pretty, very nice rifles. Listed at $539, as I recall. They also have a used Ruger 77 MkII RSI in .30-06 -- which I would view only as a suitable candidate for becoming a .35 Whelen. But it would be a very nice one...

Anyway, the CZ's are very nice for off-the-shelf rifles.

QUOTE]Thanks for the info. I had no idea they were that price, I was expecting them to cost a lot more! They get a lot of good press from folks here.
(I know where my next PFD will go, if things go my way that time of year (it went well last year, I got a No 1. 7x57) ~~~Suluuq[/QB][/QUOTE]

Suluuq,

I've fondled the 9.3X62 CZ as well, and if I were to buy any rifle off the rack right now, that would be the one!

I believe they also have, or at least had, a real MS 6.5X54 on the rack on the back wall.

Rusty

Please don't cut your rear bridge !!! you need a Mauser Vergueiro , split bridge and Hinged floorplate , you'll see at :

http://www.saaaca.org.za/links/mausers.htm

or participate in an auction at :

http://www.gunscanada.com/auction/lot.cfm?lotID=1432

All the job done only need a new bolt handle and stock

Saludos

Daniel

Rusty
If you want a Mannlicher just go and buy one, because as long as the sun shines a mongrel hybrid made by ??? Ain�t ever going to be a Mannlicher. I went into a gunshop (Fatal) to get gun oil and came out with a Steyr-Mannlicher Luxus full stock in 243win. It�s got the single set trigger, the hogs back stock, beautiful Exhibition grade wood.(Pause to admire it ). The twisted hammer mark pattern barrel. (Another Pause). And the special swing off scope mounts which hold the 6x42Swar/Habict Tirol scope. The bolt runs like silk and the gun is fitted with the spring powered box mag eject. It looks a dream (IMHO) and shoots one-hole groups.
(Downside, �Its short barrel makes it a bit noisy�)
(Upside, It�s a beauty and it will always command a good price)
(The quality and the beauty will be admired long after the cost is forgotten)
PS. NO it�s not for sale!!!
Fortune

Hey Fortune, I'm happy for you! Those Steyr-Mannlicher fully stocked rifles are something else. They may not look much on a photograph, but they sure are sweet when you hold them in your hands. And they are usually very accurate too - at least later models. I have wanted one for years!

- mike