Folks I have a question for those who might shed some insight.

I recently ran across a smith claiming to perform guild quality work. However, when I researched his name against the list of smiths in the American Custom Gunmakers Guild it came up blank.

Now I am not saying that there are not smiths out there that do extraordinary quality work that could rival that of guild members. This individual's charges are hefty, but are they true guild quality if said individual is not in the guild? Additionally if said individual does "guild quality" work, why are they not in the guild?

What qualifications are expected of a person in the guild?

I have seen some fantastic work from artisans that were not in the guild and am wondering what the real difference is?

Sincerely
Andy

quote:

Originally posted by drewhenrytnt:
Folks I have a question for those who might shed some insight.

I recently ran across a smith claiming to perform guild quality work. However, when I researched his name against the list of smiths in the American Custom Gunmakers Guild it came up blank.

Now I am not saying that there are not smiths out there that do extraordinary quality work that could rival that of guild members. This individual's charges are hefty, but are they true guild quality if said individual is not in the guild? Additionally if said individual does "guild quality" work, why are they not in the guild?

What qualifications are expected of a person in the guild?

I have seen some fantastic work from artisans that were not in the guild and am wondering what the real difference is?

Sincerely
Andy

Of course a person can do guild quality work and not be a member of the guild. He can't advertise he's a member of the guild if he isn't. But doing guild quality work and claiming to do guild quality work doesn't require any membership in any organization.

Are there drawbacks to being a member that would cause some artisans to shy away from membership?

Yeah,
They may be expected to toe the line on a few things or!
Butch

Westpac is right on, And there are some of us in the ACGG that think membership a prerequisite of professional qualifications and rarely ever mention that we are members.

Anyone who has been to the Guild Show would realize that there is a wide variation in "guild quality" work, whatever that is??

To become a Regular Member of the ACGG requires being judged on "minimum quality" for acceptance, or entry level if you will. Some new members are well beyond minimum standard, and some barely make it, in my opinion.

I think Westpac and SDH pretty much said it. I know of several different guild "type" memberships in different walks of life. None of these means that someone who is not part of the guild can not do work as good, or better than, someone who is. What it tries to do is tell you that this particular person has, at least, passed an approval process and is likely to do high quality work. I have worked with both, and if you check your referrences up and down, you should be fine with either type of professional.

It also depends on what you are looking for. I would not necessarily waste a guild member's time with a beater rifle that needed a rebarrel. (Well, I actually did that one. Thanks Mr. Kobe) But you get my point. For an every day Mauser sporterization, it does not require guild quality necessarily.

The other thing to remember is that guild entry items are usually that person's "best effort" in order to gain entry. All of their work may not be that quality.

I'm sure all those that are of that level and choose not to join have their own reasons. I think that by choosing a guild member you are trying to ensure a level of workmanship. Some people though make the mistake of choosing members thinking that it ensures the quality of business as well. i.e. timely delivery, fair dealing, etc. Sadly that isn't the case (not that all the members of the guild don't INTEND to be stand up guys) and further, the guild has no real power to penalize members.

Many VERY GOOD gunsmiths aren't members. IMO, the best source for picking a good gunsmith is this forum. You can look at representative work, you can know they met minimums by getting into ACGG, but CLIENTS are the very best source of data. I don't just want to know who does good work, I want to know who is going to get it done on time, be fair on price, and not be an a**hole. I much prefer to do business with people I get along with and like.

Red

I found the names of the artisans in question. they were not on the list last time I checked.

Larrys hit it on the nose too in his statement,"The other thing to remember is that guild entry items are usually that person's "best effort" in order to gain entry. All of their work may not be that quality."

As a toolmaker I always tried to exceed my customers' expectations within the budget allowed. That kept them coming back. One would hope that once accepted a member would strive to continue the quality of craftsmanship that got them in.

Andy

quote:

Originally posted by drewhenrytnt:
Are there drawbacks to being a member that would cause some artisans to shy away from membership?

Some of the top rifle builders in America are guild members, some are not guild members.

I love SDH and I think he is a great asset to the guild and the trade in general, both for his gun work and his photography/ writing. That said, I disagree that guild membership is a prerequisite of professional qualifications. -Note that several top builders are not in the guild.

As to drawbacks, I know that at least one top builder scoffs at the guild because they bow strongly toward tradition, and therefore focus more on form than function.(not that I agree....)

There are a couple of erroneous statements above.

It is the American Custom GUNMAKERS Guild, not for gunsmiths which is probably why we haven't seen Westpac or others applying.

The ACGG does have an Ethics Committee and ethic rules and the organization CAN do something about ethics problems. Granted the worst is give the member the boot.

Unlike non-members the ethics committee can and does work with problems between members and clients and the majority of members hold the ethics standards and membership with some importance, ie: prefer to solve problems and don't want to get the boot..

We do hope that entry level work is the members standard of quality for all work and in fact Most new members continue to strive to improve their skills and business practices. In my over 20+ years as a member, I have seen few who stayed in the organization who did not believe that the shared experience and opportunity to learn from others members was one of the most important assets.

Since the Exhibition began the basic quality standards of all American custom gunmakeing has improved tremendously because the guns are show publically and collectively.

As far as membership being a prerequisite, that is up to the individual, but one thing is for sure, if you are a member, no one can questoin whether or not you are qualified to be one.

quote:

I love SDH

The truth finally came out!

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:

quote:

I love SDH

The truth finally came out!

Trust me, if you get his book Custom Rifles in Black and White you will, at the very least, develop a man-crush....


In all seriousness, the way SDH explains some of the fine details of custom rifle building is truly sublime.

I think there are several reasons why Gunsmiths do or don't join the guild. Some look at it as a way to build business and it is good for that, others also enjoy being around like kind and sharing ideas. I know two of the best rifle builders in the world, Gil VanHorn and Ryan Breeding. Both have been at the top of their game for years. Neither needs the extra business and I don't think either have time for the Guild. Here in my area we have about 5 or 6 Guild members, and they enjoy haveing a bbq together every year and several sub work out to each other.
I have also seen work done by Guild members that was far below Guid level quality. I have a stock in our shop done by a Guild member with the barrel sitting a good .100"+ above centerline and it looks like crap. And he had been a member for many years. There is also a Guild stockmaker who I don't think has ever done a one to one inlet. All his customer work is over inletted with his pantograph and full length bedded to fill all the gaps. After 20+ years he does'nt even do his own checkering. Thats not Guild level work to me. I think the bottom line is you need to see some previous work and get refferences before you hire a gunsmith, Guild member or not.

quote:

Originally posted by SWD:
I think there are several reasons why Gunsmiths do or don't join the guild. I think the bottom line is you need to see some previous work and get references before you hire a gunsmith, Guild member or not.

Amen, brother!
Regards, Joe