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Too much pressure or something else.
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After close to 30 years of entering the Maine moose lottery I finally drew a tag this year and that gave me an excuse to make the .35 Whelen I've wanted. I sent a good condition Remington M30 in 30.06 out to JES reboring and in less than two weeks he rebored and rechambered to .35 Whelen.

I did a break in procedure of shoot and clean for the first 10 shots and then 5 and clean twice using factory Remington 200g ammo. I then went to factory Remington 250g ammo and got excellent results (all at 100 yds).





I was ready to go but thought I would try a few shots with some factory Federal ammo that used 225 Trophy Bondeds. I touched off the first round, I got slammed, smoke from the breech, had to use a small brass hammer to get the bolt open, primer gone and the case head was a mess.











After that I went back to using the Remingtons and all was fine still shooting small tight groups.

When I got home I inspected the 20 fired Remington 250 cases and they looked good, measured within specs,

Neck diameter...unfired .380, fired .388

Behind shoulder .433 vs .442

Just above rim cut .463 vs .464

Rim .465 vs.465

OAL of case 2.484 vs 2.488

If anything, smaller than specs.......





There's a mark on all the fired cases above the rim on the fired cases, it's diameter is .468 vs .464 on the unfired cases.





Some friends suggested it was probably a bad cartridge from Federal so I called them, they asked for photos, asked for the 3 boxes of ammo I still had. They tested them and wrote back...

"Examination of the P35WT1 that we received has shown that it met all Federal Cartridge Company and industry dimensional specifications.

We then fired the ammunition to test pressure and velocity and found that your ammunition had an average pressure of 51,143 psi and an average velocity of 2578 fps. The max pressure for this round is 58,000 psi and the average velocity of this round is 2600 fps. This ammunition fell within the specifications for this round. We were unable to duplicate the issue of a blown/ backed out primer that you original had. This leads us to the conclusion that this was an isolated incident and could be the result of a comparability issue between the ammunition and the firearm. If this happens again in the future we recommend having the firearm head space checked out by a certified gun smith."


They did send 4 boxes of new ammo to replace mine as a courtesy.

So I am still wondering what this could have been. The fired Remington cases showed no signs of stretching (though 1 had a split neck) and the specs on the fired cases seem to be within limits. I have not checked the headspace and will do so but it seems that it would be OK from the fired case dimensions.

Any ideas?


At least it didn't affect my hunt, taken Tuesday, 10/11 at 5pm, 742 lbs dressed, 41"....


thanks,

Rob



 
Posts: 1693 | Location: East Coast | Registered: 06 January 2003Reply With Quote
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Good job with your hunt. tu2
Be interested to hear the views of the gunsmiths, shooting another of the Feds.would give me a flinch Big Grin
I hope it was a rogue round, pity you didn't take one of the originals apart. Do you still have a part box or just the new ones they sent you?
The marks on your cases and the split neck are worth a consideration...Jc




 
Posts: 1138 | Registered: 24 September 2011Reply With Quote
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Firstly, glad you are ok after that incident.

The photo of the fired case with the arrow pointing to that expanded part of the case is normal, this happens with every case, it's just the amount that changes between rifles. A generous chamber will be more pronounced than a tight one.
I would be getting the lug recesses checked after an event like that, lug setback is a real possibility.

The case that deformed is a definite excessive pressure event. How Federal came to their conclusion is beyond me.
I don't use ANYTHING cartridge wise made by Federal, ALL of their brass is soft, I had expanded primer pockets in both a 300WM and 338WM with Federal factory rounds, in fact, 4 cases in the 338, and 6 in the 300, had primers fall out as I ejected the cases. Never seen that with other manufacturers.
I use their primers though.

Cheers.
shocker
 
Posts: 683 | Location: N E Victoria, Australia. | Registered: 26 February 2009Reply With Quote
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quote:
How Federal came to their conclusion is beyond me


Could it have been that one round out of the four boxes was bad.
 
Posts: 19692 | Location: wis | Registered: 21 April 2001Reply With Quote
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2 things come to mind:

1) Case overly annealed by mistake at the factory.
2) Bullet set back at chambering.
 
Posts: 1102 | Location: Denmark | Registered: 15 October 2001Reply With Quote
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Congratulations on the moose! I would guess you had one bad round from Federal. I would get the rifle checked out anyway. It's cheap insurance for peace of mind. Enjoy that moose backstrap!
 
Posts: 452 | Location: North Pole, Alaska | Registered: 28 April 2001Reply With Quote
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Pressure! The line on the case no big deal as others stated. The extractor notch and blown primer is. Can't picture a bullet setback causing that type pressure. The powder will stop it from going very far anyway.


As usual just my $.02
Paul K
 
Posts: 12881 | Location: Mexico, MO | Registered: 02 April 2001Reply With Quote
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Thank you gentlemen, you put my mind at rest concerning the rebore. You can imagine I was confused as to the cause of the incident.

As far as checking the rifle now, would a headspace check (go/no go gauges) suffice or is there another way to check lug setback?

Thanks for the congrats on the moose, the Whelen did it's job nicely.
 
Posts: 1693 | Location: East Coast | Registered: 06 January 2003Reply With Quote
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quote:
As far as checking the rifle now, would a headspace check (go/no go gauges) suffice or is there another way to check lug setback?

I wouldn't worry about it.


As usual just my $.02
Paul K
 
Posts: 12881 | Location: Mexico, MO | Registered: 02 April 2001Reply With Quote
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That Federal factory round was way over pressure. I have never shot a factory loaded round that hot, but did have Rem ammo (2 boxes) for a 7STW that cause the bolt to nearly lock shut after three rounds. I blew the primer on a 22/250 once shooting handloads that had been tested on a moderate day while shooting PDs on a hot KS afternoon. Glad it didn't hurt your rifle, cause it sure is a shooter!


Dennis
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Posts: 1191 | Location: Ft. Morgan, CO | Registered: 15 April 2005Reply With Quote
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Just as a matter of interest weight every loaded round of the four new packets Federal have sent you. Will give you peace of mind at least that there is not a rogue in amongst them in terms of powder or bullet weight.
I can't see that the blown round was due to excessive headspace as if the case was that far out of spec the round would most likely not have fired.
I suspect there was a powder overload or a heavy bullet had somehow found its way into the loading process.

Weigh all the new rounds and if they are all the same, fire one, if okay then good to go.

I use federal cases in my 7mm-08 and they last forever so wouldn't subscribe to the notion that all Federal brass is too soft. My brother uses Federal 7mm-08 factory loads and gives me the brass for reloading.
 
Posts: 3923 | Location: Rolleston, Christchurch, New Zealand | Registered: 03 August 2009Reply With Quote
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I will do that but what I find unusual is that it was the first round I took out of a full box that blew and I had 3 boxes to choose from, 1 in 60 chance.


I did neglect to mention in the original post that the 3 boxes of Federal I had were made in 1996, but they were properly stored and Federal said the other 59 rounds were in spec so I can't imagine that is a factor but I feel you should know that.
 
Posts: 1693 | Location: East Coast | Registered: 06 January 2003Reply With Quote
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I would check the throat length. You can use a hornady Gage OR seat a flat base bullet with the base forward to determine the throat length. Might be too short.



Doug Humbarger
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Posts: 8351 | Location: Jennings Louisiana, Arkansas by way of Alabama by way of South Carloina by way of County Antrim Irland by way of Lanarkshire Scotland. | Registered: 02 November 2001Reply With Quote
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Check the neck diameter of an unfired Federal cartridge, The spec is showing 0.388" as unfired while your measurements are showing a neck diameter on your fired Remington cases the same 0.388" which is obviously your chamber spec.

Maybe there is not enough neck clearance for the Federal cases whereas by chance there is for the Remington cases, possibly having thinner necks, and you have got away with it with them.
 
Posts: 3923 | Location: Rolleston, Christchurch, New Zealand | Registered: 03 August 2009Reply With Quote
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I don't have any of the Federals here, they all went back and new ones haven't arrived yet but I remember checking that measurment and unfired Feds were about the same as the unfired Rems, well under the .388 spec.

When the new Feds arrive I will check them too.


Would a chamber cast with Ferrosafe tell us anything the fired case won't?
 
Posts: 1693 | Location: East Coast | Registered: 06 January 2003Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Recoil Rob:
I don't have any of the Federals here, they all went back and new ones haven't arrived yet but I remember checking that measurment and unfired Feds were about the same as the unfired Rems, well under the .388 spec.

When the new Feds arrive I will check them too.


Would a chamber cast with Ferrosafe tell us anything the fired case won't?


No a chamber cast won't tell you anything you do not know now.

The blown primer and other markings on the case head of the only Federal cartridge fired in your gun absolutely indicate very high pressure. There appears to be a pressure ring just ahead of the extractor groove on that fired case too, almost like a belt, again an indication of very high pressure on the unsupported portion of the case head.

It is hard to see that the Federal ammunition is not "comparable" (more correctly should be not "compatible") with the firearm as the two Remington loads appear to be fine therefore the chamber is not so far out of spec as is being implied. If the headspace were out I would expect to see some signs on the Remington cases. What do the fired primers look like on the Remington cases?

Although extremely rare or unlikely but as suggested perhaps just a rogue loading in one cartridge.
 
Posts: 3923 | Location: Rolleston, Christchurch, New Zealand | Registered: 03 August 2009Reply With Quote
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Here's a pic of the fired primers from the factory Rem 250's...


 
Posts: 1693 | Location: East Coast | Registered: 06 January 2003Reply With Quote
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Thanks for sharing your experiences. That fed round looks like either way over pressure or very soft brass somehow. A fluke of some sort.

On the rem primmer photo, are those before or after the fed round? Some of the rem primers look flat from a little too much headspace. If you can see a difference in the same rounds fired before and after the fed round, then something probably stretched a bit. For example, if the primers all look like that lower left one from before, and all flat like the others after...
 
Posts: 870 | Registered: 13 November 2008Reply With Quote
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Rem primers and a Rem 30S; don't see anything other than maybe a bit oversized firing pin hole. I can say that the Rem Whelen factory rounds are usually a bit short to the shoulder. Your Chamber might be a bit long and you will need to reload to fit. I have an old custom chamber and it is a bit long. I would try and check the Leade as well with the flat based bullet test described above. The throat would have to be pretty darned short on a re-bored barrel to have a 225 hit the lands, but I guess anything is possible.


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Posts: 2135 | Location: Where God breathes life into the Amber Waves of Grain and owns the cattle on a thousand hills. | Registered: 20 August 2002Reply With Quote
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Those Rems in the above picture were fired rounds of 250g after the Federal round, below the photo is of fired rounds of Rem 200g before the Federal round.
I see pretty much the same variation, no?

 
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Excess headspace will Not cause what you experienced. I think you just got a hot round or a soft case head.
 
Posts: 17366 | Location: USA | Registered: 02 August 2009Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by dpcd:
Excess headspace will Not cause what you experienced. I think you just got a hot round or a soft case head.


(+1)

The only other cause that comes to light would be an excessive amount of lubricant in the chamber and bore.

It's really a mute argument though, because you destroyed the vital piece of evidence when you pulled the trigger and you are no longer in possession of any of the suspect rounds from the same lot that could be used for further testing with the same firearm.


When I was a kid. I had the stick. I had the rock. And I had the mud puddle. I am as adept with them today, as I was back then. Lets see today's kids say that about their IPods, IPads and XBoxes in 45 years!
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Posts: 2542 | Location: Edmonton, Alberta Canada | Registered: 05 June 2005Reply With Quote
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SOB is Brilliant (Do NOT tell him). Check your bore for a bulge but don't be surprise when you find none. Too much oil or grease in the bore will definitely raise pressures.
 
Posts: 17366 | Location: USA | Registered: 02 August 2009Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Recoil Rob:
Those Rems in the above picture were fired rounds of 250g after the Federal round, below the photo is of fired rounds of Rem 200g before the Federal round.
I see pretty much the same variation, no?


Yup. Looks the same to me. If you can't prove a 225 jammed into the lands caused it, I would vote along with the SOB's above Smiler Singular hot load or soft brass at the head.
Pressures would have to been very, very high to cause the problem you show.


"The liberty enjoyed by the people of these states of worshiping Almighty God agreeably to their conscience, is not only among the choicest of their blessings, but also of their rights."
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Posts: 2135 | Location: Where God breathes life into the Amber Waves of Grain and owns the cattle on a thousand hills. | Registered: 20 August 2002Reply With Quote
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One thing to check- but won't be possible to prove now, would be the case length too long resulting in the factory crimp going tight against the shoulder, restricting the ability of the bullet to push the crimp into the throat, freeing the bullet to move through the barrel. It happens more often when reloaders shoot cases that have stretched and not been trimmed, but is possible with factory. I had a Winchester factory case do basically the same thing. I sent the box back to Winchester and they said I shouldn't be shooting ammo that was over 10 years old- but admitted no fault.
 
Posts: 1421 | Location: WA St, USA | Registered: 28 August 2016Reply With Quote
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Since it's a newly rebored/rechambered barrel..........I wonder if borescoping and slugging the barrel, would yield any helpful information.

Kevin
 
Posts: 414 | Location: The Republic Of Texas, USA | Registered: 28 December 2000Reply With Quote
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What was the velocity of the Rem ammo? Is it within normal or a bit high?

Just wondering if your bore is on the tight side of tolerance and that has caused the high pressure spike.

BTW my experience with a 243 reload 20+ years ago using 85gr (that had a powder charge 1 gr below max for 90 gr load!) Barnes X bullet seated too long (5 thou off lands) produced a primer blow out & case head just like that with Remington Brass.


"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick."
 
Posts: 11388 | Location: New Zealand | Registered: 02 July 2008Reply With Quote
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Remington states it's 2400fps at the muzzle form a 24" barrel.
 
Posts: 1693 | Location: East Coast | Registered: 06 January 2003Reply With Quote
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Is it against the law for manufacturers to tell porkies to complaining customers?

From delving into the nature of riflescopes, I suspect modern image-movement erector tubes often get damaged by recoil and that owners send the scopes back, smug in the generosity of the long warranties. The makers won't want to discuss the matter - just fix or replace the product and stay shtum.
 
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And here Butch Cassidy thought they spoke English in Australia...

http://www.getyarn.io/yarn-cli...4e-9fee-84b211afbb0b
 
Posts: 1693 | Location: East Coast | Registered: 06 January 2003Reply With Quote
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Understandably you will be nervous touching off a round from the new replacement Federal ammo you have been sent.
Although I agree with others it was most likely a rogue loaded round (extremely rare with factory ammo) but I would be tying the rifle to a tire and and shooting off a couple of the new Federal rounds using a string on the trigger just to get a look at the cases before I trusted the ammo in your rifle. Maybe all coincidence, factory ammo,rebored/chambered barrel but better safe than sorry.
 
Posts: 3923 | Location: Rolleston, Christchurch, New Zealand | Registered: 03 August 2009Reply With Quote
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Or too hard/brittle. I had some Hornady cases (Superformance-22 Hornet) that had fractured just forward of the case head. 3 other brands had no issues. Since Hornady never did respond to my inquiry, I just checked it with a NO-Go and the camber is fine. I think bad cases do slip through once in a while. Same with short powder weight (Norma Oryx-7X57). Stuff happens.

QUOTE]Originally posted by dpcd:
Excess headspace will Not cause what you experienced. I think you just got a hot round or a soft case head.[/QUOTE]


Life itself is a gift. Live it up if you can.
 
Posts: 5274 | Location: Near Hershey PA | Registered: 12 October 2012Reply With Quote
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I would chronograph that ammo & check.

Also the fired Rem cases - bottom row second from left has a rounded primer with a crater ring due to primer metal flowing into firing pin hole.

That tells me that particular case was a bit loose in the chamber and moved back more in recoil - loose fit = lower pressure and primer backing out more and flowing into firing pin hole.

JMHO.

quote:
Originally posted by Recoil Rob:
Remington states it's 2400fps at the muzzle form a 24" barrel.


"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick."
 
Posts: 11388 | Location: New Zealand | Registered: 02 July 2008Reply With Quote
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Check the chamber. Make a cast if you can. The SAAMI spec chamber has a full 0.250" of freebore.

I saw on the other thread refrences to bullet weight and having the bullet 0.10 off the lands. I could never seat the bullets that close in my Whelen. My reamer is definately SAAMI spec.

I see both rifles were done by JES? If that is so then the short throat idea may have merit. Maybe his reamer has less freebore. Afterall, I'd have made it that way if I could.


Maybe a little softer case heads and a short throat are stacking up occassionally to make for excitement.
 
Posts: 508 | Registered: 20 January 2005Reply With Quote
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SEE "MY GUN BLEW UP" by Just a hunter under med. rifles...A 35 Whelen that blew up on him. and by Jes Reboring....Hmmmm, where their is smoke their is fire!! shocker


Ray Atkinson
Atkinson Hunting Adventures
10 Ward Lane,
Filer, Idaho, 83328
208-731-4120

rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com
 
Posts: 42209 | Location: Twin Falls, Idaho | Registered: 04 June 2000Reply With Quote
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Thanks Ray, i have been posting my experiences there too.
 
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