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In any firearms design as with a good bomb maker. the trouble with building a trigger mechanism is not getting it to fire but keeping it from firing until you are ready. And there is no fool proof design either. You may think it's fool proof until a smarter fool comes along www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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I have hunted with an experienced PH who carried a Blaser R93 in .416 Rem. Mag. I have taken mine in .375 on nearly every one of my African safaris since I first bought it many years ago. This PH and I both kept our Blaser R93s loaded and de-cocked while on the truck. We carried them in the bush the same way. Absolutely safe. In my considerable experience with them, Blaser R93s are machines that work well and every time. The factory is not responsible for the extra "nuts" that are sometimes installed behind the rifles. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Which has nothing to do with the rifle firing when de-cocked/moved to safe. Unless of course you take the stance that is never happened or the shooter had his finger on the trigger. Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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Have to disagree. "Absolutely safe"??? Point that rifle at your kid and see how comfortable you feel?? if it was absolutely safe that should not rase an eyebrow
That indicates complacency. No firearm should ever be trusted to not fire when a round is in the chamber. Cocked or not. There are levels of risk we are willing to accept for the protection of ourselves or others when it comes to how ready a firearm is to use. But to say a loaded firearm is absolutely safe is completely incorrect. Loaded firearms should be handled with care and respect. You may do this. But to just slap on a label and say it's absolutely safe. I wouldn't bet on nor would i bet my life on it which is just what may be at steak here www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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Ah well, I am sorry but I must disagree. Safety is not the same as superstition. And please don't confuse muzzle control with mechanical safety. They are two different and redundant means to the same end. This stuff reminds me of what my grandma told me. If all you talk to is Chicken Little, the sky still won't fall.  And I do think that an operator induced AD is what is involved in the cases mentioned. The oldest excuse in the book is to blame the equipment. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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In our case, I'm 110% sure it was not operator error and in fact, we were able to reproduce the error on numerous occasions. When I say we, I mean the two clients, myself and the guy who owned the area were all able to make the firing pin fall on the chamber without touching the trigger and we were able to do it with loaded and unloaded chambers and there is absolutely no doubt in my mind there was a problem with the rifle. As to loaded chambers in the hunting truck: - What does it achieve? After all, you're not going to shoot from the truck anyway and even if you were, you'd have to have the rifle in your hands before you use it. So why not be 110% sure the rifle is safe and keep the chamber clear until your feet are on the ground and the rifle in your hands? I can't see a single advantage or practical reason whatsoever in keeping a round chambered whilst the rifle in on the truck. | |||
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 excellent points! | |||
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Superstition?? Again if you trust that action with your life fine but don't risk mine. My point is there is a time and place for a loaded chamber. In the truck may be one of them on a dangerous game hunt (maybe) or in the hills of Afghanistan where the risk out ways speed to deploy a rifle on target. out side of that there is no place no situation that warrants a loaded chamber in a non life threatening situation. I have walked off hunts because of situations like this. Some dim wit feels the need to bounce around in a jeep with a loaded rifle on a pig hunt NO THANKS I keep my HnK USP 45 loaded in my to drawer of my dresser hammer down and safety on. but i still treat it with respect. I just don"t see the need in a non life threatening situation. Even our state police keep the shotguns and AR 15's unloaded till needed www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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My point is a simple one. An innovative weapon like the Blaser R93 necessarily has a different manual of arms than a conventional bolt action rifle. What is quite safe with the former may not be wise with the latter. A de-cocked R93 with a round in the chamber is incapable of firing unless and until the cocking knob at the rear of the bolt is pushed fully forward and the trigger is pulled. Pushing that knob forward requires an intentional effort. It's not anything like flicking off a standard two or three position safety. That's because it's not a safety. Significantly more effort is required to move the cocking knob, because when you push it forward you are compressing the mainspring that powers the striker. As for the whys and wherefores of using the R93 as it was intended to be used, I would think that they are fairly obvious. Speed and silence. And safety, since a de-cocked rifle is a safe rifle. Small advantages matter when they are important advantages. And in my experience, when hunting the advantages of speed and silence in getting into action can be very important. Not generally, perhaps, but certainly sometimes. And I am not one to submit myself to needless handicaps. After all, concessions to safety should be made only if they make sense. One could empty the magazine while in the truck, too. But it would serve no purpose. As for ADs, I have never seen or heard tell of a problem such as the one described above. OTOH, I have heard of ADs with the Blaser caused by pulling the trigger while pushing forward on the cocking knob. That is an obvious and rather bone-headed no-no. If the rifle in question did as described, then it was defective. And I would have to say it was an extraordinarily rare defect, as I have never heard of such a thing before this. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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Mike, I can assure you that the incident happened and what's more, was recreated a fair number of times by several people and in front of at least 3 witnesses. Incidentally, I was also able to recreate it in front of the Blaser dealer sufficient times to convince him (very quickly) the rifle should be sent back to Germany at his expense. Consequently and with all due respect, your statement: "A de-cocked R93 with a round in the chamber is incapable of firing unless and until the cocking knob at the rear of the bolt is pushed fully forward and the trigger is pulled" has to be untrue. I appreciate that it should be impossible but that rifle at least proved that an AD due to technical failure of the design is possible.... maybe very rare but possible. | |||
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I cringe when I hear anyone speak in such absolutes. I would like to learn what the firing pin is resting on while that rifle is uncocked? Why are old style Ruger's and Colt single actions recommended to be carried with the hammer on an empty chamber? They are also uncocked.
I don't see how cocking an uncocked R93 is any quicker or more silent then sliding a safety off of a more traditional rifle. With either style of rifle I fail to see any reason to camber a round before actually stalking game. I also find it impossible to quietly chamber a round in an R93 but relatively easy to do so with a typical turn bolt rifle. Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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I can't tell you what the R93 firing pin is "resting on" when the action is uncocked, but I can tell you what it is NOT resting on: the primer of a chambered round. Unlike a conventional bolt action rifle, the firing pin of an R93 does not protrude through the boltface when uncocked. For years, it has been considered an unsafe practice to carry a decocked bolt action rifle with a round chambered. Because the firing pin rests on the primer in this condition, the rifle may potentially fire if it is struck at the back of the cocking piece. This is not the case with manually cocking actions (like the R93). When you look at the bolt face of an uncocked R93, you will not see the firing pin protruding. I tried to take a picture for you, but my camera does not want to focus on such short distance, so I guess you'll just have to be content with a description. - mike ********************* The rifle is a noble weapon... It entices its bearer into primeval forests, into mountains and deserts untenanted by man. - Horace Kephart | |||
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shakari, a Blaser rifle with any defect (much less something of the nature you describe) is a rare thing. What you describe is clearly NOT a design defect, or it would be a widespread and common occurrence, which it assuredly is not. Rather, what you describe is something out of the ordinary that should be immediately repaired, as you say yours was. As for my statement being untrue, you are willfully failing to take into account my basic and understandable presumption that the rifle in question must of course be in good repair. One can truthfully state that a particular model of Porsche has a top speed of 180 mph without having to stipulate that the engine needs a functioning crankshaft for that to happen. Howard, as mho has explained, the Blaser is not a Colt's Single Action Army! As for safety, the advantage of the de-cocker should be obvious. The Blaser can be more safely carried with a round chambered - precisely because the rifle is not cocked and on safe, as with a conventional bolt action, but rather the rifle's mainspring is completely decompressed and the firing pin cannot come into contact with the primer of the chambered round. A hunter carrying a loaded and locked conventional bolt action rifle through heavy brush can unknowingly have his safety moved by that brush into the firing position. Such things do happen. But such a thing cannot happen with a Blaser. As I have said, it requires an intentional effort to move the cocking knob forward and thereby compress the mainspring. And one of the strongest points of the Blaser is that one does not have to stalk with an empty chamber and load a round only at the last minute, when noise and movement are potentially detrimental. Nor does one have to stalk with a rifle that is loaded and cocked with the safety on. (Let me say that when I am hunting with a conventional bolt action rifle, I carry it loaded and cocked with the safety on at all times when my feet are on the ground. Is that somehow inherently unsafe? Not in my opinion. Is it less safe than carrying a de-cocked Blaser? Yes, in my opinion.) As for whether such a practice is ever necessary except when stalking game, I say absolutely (there's another absolute for you!). Try walking around in dangerous game country sometime and see if you don't revise your opinion on this subject. I have personally been caught several times by surprise in heavy brush by the likes of elephant and Cape buffalo, and my dangerous game experience is not all that extensive as compared with that of many others who share my opinion on this subject. By good luck I have not had to fire a shot, but it could have been otherwise, and in a hurry! For me, the paramount thing is to practice safe gun handling, meaning first and foremost, muzzle control. But having a rifle like the Blaser, with a well-engineered and very safe to operate firing system, is nevertheless something I absolutely (there I go again!) do appreciate. Mike Wilderness is my cathedral, and hunting is my prayer. | |||
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How would one look at an uncocked bolt? Can you cock and uncock while the bolt is removed from the action? If you left the action/reciever intact and removed the barrel can you still cock and uncock the bolt via the "safety" slide? If so this should give a good view of the end of the bolt head. Sorry I don't currently own a R93 or I would look. Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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Michael in general I agree with what you are saying. The safety of the R93 is one of the things that has always appealed to me. However like the advantage of CRF vs Push Feed, I think the advantages (decocking vs a M-98 safety)are largely theoretical and take a distance second to muzzle control. My disagreement, with you, however slight was over the speed and quietness of cocking vs taking off safety and the very real advantage, again however slight of the ability to quietly chamber a round in the turnbolt vs the virtual impossibility of doing so with the R93. The Blaser K95 has the same cocking system as the R93 and is currently my favorite hunting rifle and it's loaded the second I step from the vehicle. So I do believe in the system. I mentioned the Colt single action to make the point that decocked - by itself - isn't safe. Be extension the R93 isn't safe simply by being uncocked. I do acknowledge the lack of an exposed hammer to be struck. However as mho has pointed out there is something more to the R93 that prevents a decocked firing pin from coming in contact with the primer. What that is nobody here yet, seems to know and to my mind what it is and how it functions is of equal if not more important then the fact it's decocked. All of this has nothing to do with the fact that based upon the information available it appears that the bolt lock up is the weak link in the R93 system. Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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shakari Exactly what did you do to make the Blaser fire without touching the trigger??? DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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Mike, Someone asked if anyone had experience of other faults on R93s ...... and I answered. I'm not for a moment suggesting it's a common fault just that my own one developed that particular fault and that it could be reproduced by a number of people in a number of places. As for the rest, as I said, I can see no advantage whatsoever in having a round chambered whilst the rifle (any rifle) is in the truck. I actually like the R93 but that doesn't mean I should change my safety rules to accommodate them or their owners or that I'd choose to own another one. Putting it another way, I fail to see how any rifle with a round in the chamber is safer than one with an empty chamber. As for quietness of loading, no matter what make the rifle is, if the hunter can't manage to chamber a round and apply the safety/decocker reasonably quietly (when he's standing on the ground), then the hunter needs to practice more before going hunting. Also, if the rifle was able to fail in the way it did, I'd say there's a definite design defect there somewhere and if you think otherwise, I'd like to know what you'd call it? - It's hardly a beneficial design feature is it? NE Howard has kindly answered your question for me. | |||
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You are saying that it is TOTALLY IMPOSSIBLE for the cocking mechanism to hit on a bar on a rack or get raked by a tree limb going 20kph and not get cocked? A million to 1 chance -- but stuff happens! I would keep it unloaded on the truck. | |||
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Ask Darcy Echols how an square bridge magnum Oberndorf behaved when overloaded with 4064 instead of 7828....
 .... Arisaka 99 Blow-up test. | |||
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Please do so. If you have his email invite him to post his views here. Howard Moses Lake, Washington USA hwhomes@outlook.com | |||
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I've got an R93 with several barrels. I love the gun. Out of the box, they are one of the most accurate rifles you can buy and have THE BEST scope mounting system of any rifle on the planet. The Mauser was the greatest rifle design of the 19th century but the Blaser is the greatest design of the 20th. If you don't like them, don't buy one. Me, I am sticking with them and will probably buy a R8 professional "package" in the near future. Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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For pure scientific research (and pure prurience and voyeurism), I would like to know what the cartridges pressure was for each event. Also, what brands of factory ammunition were used that precipitated the "kabluey". I read a press release years ago that demonized the 1/2 blind man for recklessly high pressures with hand loaded ammunition. One of the more recent press releases referred to factory ammunition that was in "Kabluey" range. I have been in a US ammunition manufacturing facility. There were over a dozen "extra" steps to prevent high pressure excursions. That was a long while ago. What I would like to see is the ammunition associated with each kabluey collected, and tested at the proof house in Liege or Birmingham. That testing would answer a lot of questions: 1. What pressures were the hand loaded cartridges. 2. What pressures were the factory cartridges. 3. Is there utility for every R-93 owner to buy ammunition only in a large amount from the same lot, and then have a statistical sample of that ammunition tested at proof Blaser first blamed the hand loaders - fair enough. When it was discovered that factory ammunition was involved is some of the Kablueys, Blaser began cautioning that even factory ammunition could be unsafe at any speed. In my military aviation career I had sooo much fun. I also experienced several esoteric emergency situations due to esoteric materiel and design shortcomings. If I had been "ham- fisted", or lacking in skill or the all important drive to stay alive, these aircraft failures would have been determined to be "pilot error". In 1987 or so, my #1 (right side) engine would not stop accelerating. It OVERHEATED up past 1,575 degree Centigrade. Big Kabluey. The Deputy Commander for Operations (DCO) wanted to severely discipline me for not jumping. Since the fire lights did not activate I just wrestled that ugly beast back to the runway. It turns out that the fuel flow rate controller had failed to the full flow position. When I landed, I insisted that the world wide fleet of F-4, Phantom IIs be grounded and the rate controllers be MPI inspected and if any were on the verge of croaking, those would be completely destructively tested to figure out exactly where and how they were going to fail. The maintenance guys waited until the DCO left the parking lot. I signed the order as a captain. Over the next two days seven aircraft worldwide were discovered to be on the brink of coming apart. The unit got much positive publicity in the Twelfth Air Force. The point of this shaggy dog story is that there were at least five or six times that I could have gone "splat" and it would have been listed as "pilot error". Instead, I was flying twenty year old jets that had each done three years of duty in Vietnam, and other nasty locales. Blaming the pilot/shooter is often the first (knee jerk) response to a debilitating or fatal occurrence. That should be the last place to assign blame; after all other possibilities are exhausted.  | |||
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