Time to mine the wealth of knowledge here for my own selfish purposes.

I'd like some suggestions for building my 404, it'll be on a Montana 1999 action. Question is which one would be most suitable, the standard long action or the PH version with the double square bridge ?

I do intend to scope this with a 2.5 Leupold in Talley QD rings, but I want express sights as well. Question is which ones ? Suggestions please.

The barrel will be a Lothar Walther, probably 26", but I'm not familiar with their contours so suggestions would be helpful.

Slow rust blue, in wood. Which brings up the big question, the stock ? I want something fairly utilitarian in wood that allows for both scoped and open sight use ? Any ideas ?

Skinner---

The standard M-99 is long enough for the 404 but you'll need bottom metal for it. Blackburn makes it.

The mounts could be made as double square bridges like these on a 1909 Argentine.



On a 404 the recoil stops at the front of each mount would be twice this .010" Ten thousandths is plenty for a 7x57 which this one is.

A nice H&H "medium" contour L-W barrel with a quarter rib and ramp front and sling mount would be a great combo. A kinda "Mr Purdy visits Winchester" express rifle.

The way to handle the stock is to make it right for the irons and lift your head slightly for the scope which is mounted VERY low.....pick one with a small eye-piece to clear the bolt.

An English-style express rifle stock made of English walnut is considerably lighter than American synthetics for the same action.

Believe it or not.

Hey, Ray! How much did that 375 stock weigh?? We weighed it on my snooker table..... One pound 10 ounces?? I know we both about fell over.

[ 04-25-2003, 00:11: Message edited by: JBelk ]

You're killing me with pictures like that.

Hey Kevin-- Does that help......or make it worse?

JBelk

You are the Lord of evil
Now, I will have trouble falling to sleep because of this damn pictures, it's like playboy pictures for mauser loonies

In return of your kindness. I bought a Zg-47 in mint condition for less money than you can imagine, chew on that

Now, do you feel lucky. I sure do

/ JOHAN

[ 04-25-2003, 00:36: Message edited by: JOHAN ]

Jack, you're heartless, I'm sitting here trying to resist starting my .416 Taylor project. Then you go and post these pictures.

Now, how do you think an Argentine would look with a half octagon barrel, quarter rib, gold bead front site, Pre-70 Win. Safari style rear leaf from Wisner, standard Buehler style low safety?

Is it very necessary to surface grind an action? The crest on my Argentine is perfect and I thought it would look great on the finished product. I got this action from a gunsmith friend of mine, bolt handle has been done very nicely, and the bolt release he built up a bit and checkered the top of it real nice.

Red

Dago Red

I would choose something else than the Buhler saftey. Not because it's bad, but I think it's uggly. It would look much better with a win 70 style or rework the old bolt shroud with a wisner two or three pos kit.

Good luck with the project and show us the gun when its done

/ JOHAN

A few suggestions for you:

Sights -- must have a classic banded front ramp for a DGR; you have no option, this is a law . Also must have a barrel band for the front sling swivel. My preference for these are NECG Masterpiece for the sight, and Talley for the swivel band.

416's and up deserve quarter ribs. Not to talk you out of a L-W, which are excellent match grade barrels at good prices, but if you go with a Douglas or Shilen, you can use a Dakota quarter rib blank, which will almost perfectly fit a Douglas or Shilen factory contour -- say a #4, for the 404. The rib blanks as delivered are massively thick, and will need to be machined down 3/16 - 1/4" as well as having a dovetail for a rear sight cut in, and a couple of extra mounting screw holes. For the rear sight, I went with a single [fixed] standing leaf Dakota -- foolproof. I'd bet the 200 and 300 yd leafs on a majority of rifles so equipped, never even get regulated. We're talking $60 for the QT rib blank and $30 - $100 for the machining involved, instead of many mill hours of labor to have one fabricated to fit a L-W contour.

Stock: If it were me, I'd contact Henry Pohl at Great American Gunstocks. Opinions may vary, but MY opinion of Henry is that he delivers good wood and decent inletting at fair prices. His British express rifle classic pattern gives you a great compromise between open sights and scope; so too does the Griffin and Howe open sight classic.

Good luck,
Todd

Edited: one more thing -- if you opt for an island rear sight instead of a QT rib, look at the NECG Masterpiece adjustable rear sight. They are nice looking, well made, with broad adjustments. It made more sense to me than a multileaf arrangement, so I used it on my 9.3x62.

[ 04-25-2003, 01:54: Message edited by: Todd Getzen ]

Damn Jack thats "purdy" (the way we say pretty down South fer all you yankees)!

johan,

I will have to take a look at the Wisner version, I don't care for the shrouds that I have seen with the 3 position safeties that i have seen on mausers. I think the Buehler style safety's looks, versus the cost of a 3 position make it more than pretty :-) I don't know how much the Wisner version is, maybe it is reasonable. I don't have a huge budget. (have an engine to replace in my explorer and a wedding/honeymoon in a year)

I have a stock already for this project, got it from the same guy, looks like it is setup for an open sighted gun. I'll try and take some pictures of the parts so you guys can get an idea of what I have and see where I hope to be going.

Red

AAHHHH, just found the 2 position Wisner on Brownells site. Can anybody tell me, if my guns have already had the safeties converted over to 2 position buehler type safeties (I have about 10 of these), can it still be switched to this Wisner Safety?

AND

I installed a 2 position myself on my practice action, would this Wisner safety be one that I could install myself? I used a dremel for the work on the other one.

Thanks all!!!

Red

Dago,

I installed a PME 2 position (side swing) safety in a Mauser shroud, with a dremel tool and some Nicholson hobby files. It took 'a few hours' but it worked. The next one I installed was much easier -- Jim Kobe did the machining, and I screwed the shroud back into the bolt. Well worth $65.

If you decide to do it: get a 1/8 carbide straight spiral bit, some fiberglass reinforced cutoff discs, and the aforementioned Nicholson hobby files. Start by annealing the shroud; I stuck mine on a [long] piece of threaded rod, with a nut on either end, then put it near the embers of a hot wood fire, until it glowed a dull red (done when it was dark outside). Then let it cool slowly. Before annealing, most are those shrouds are "harder 'n woodpecker lips." And don't forget to have it rehardened -- mine will eventually get color cased -- or eventually the thin top tab may bend down and cause it to bind. At least that's my gunsmith's experience.

Jack, it looks great. Can't wait to get my hands on it. I will wear gloves. Big thick ones. I have a very similar one I am doing at the request of Jim Dodd and the San Diego SCI chapter. When the 3 position safety gets on it, they could be brothers.

Is that the Wisner straddle floor plate I sent? They sure do create a new look to it.

Hey Chic--

I've been fooling ya'll. It still looks like this.

Skinner,

Have you read the threads in the Big Bore forum GAHunter had with his .404 Jeff project? Some lessons to be learned there.

Chic,

I will be happy to see a rifle that looks like Jack's example!

jim dodd

Jack,
That's kinda what I had in mind as per scope mounts, what all is involved in that ? Should the receiver be surface ground before custom bases like that are made for it ? And I assume that Blackburn makes a drop belly version of the bottom metal for the .404, nothing on the web for Blackburn, bloody heathens !!!

At least most of you custom people have the common decency to make your gun porn available on the web so we can drool and imagine what it would be like to fondle the fine piece displayed.

So, custom bases, quarter rib, drop belly and nice wood.

Hmmmm..........Looks like I'm gonna have to come up with a good story for the girlfriend about how I think staying in and cooking together would be much better for our relationship than those nice restaurants and expensive bottles of wine she likes so much. I'm yearning for more simple things, togetherness, shared experiences, (a new rifle !!!!) etc. Yeah, that's it.

I am interested in the same sort of project but not really set on a caliber. Would like a .375 or .416. What can we do on a '53 M70 action that was originally a 30-06 as far as calibers go? I really like Ted's idea of a QT rib, bbl band and band front sight.

JBelk

I like your metal work on the last picture that is truely fantastic. You did a fine job bending the bolt handle down too

Tell us how manny hours have you spent on this fantastic action with a special saftey for low scopemounts

Just pulling your leg for a while

/ JOHAN

[ 04-26-2003, 00:13: Message edited by: JOHAN ]

Just an opinion here...about safeties on bolt guns...

Over the last 35-40 years I've owned quite a number of British magazine rifles and commercial Mausers, for cartridges including but not limited to .318 WR, 330 BSA, 9 m/m Mauser, 350 Rigby, .358 Norma Mag, 9.3x62, .375 H&H, .375 x 2-1/2" flanged, 10.75x68, .404 Jeffrey, .416 Rigby, 11.2 m/m Schuler, and .458 Winchester.

All except the BSA .330 had the standard Mauser safety if I recall correctly. I never felt handicapped by it, nor apparently did the other customers of the manufacturers...at any rate not enough to get the builders to change their rifles. If you want a "classic", I'd recommend staying with the original. I always particularly liked the ones on my Rigbys...with "Safe" inlaid in solid gold. Not flashy, that little bit of gilt, but surely eye-catching if you glance down to see if the rifle is on safe. You can, of course, feel whether the rifle is on safe, with your thumb, too.

(When I needed a safety with a bigger rifle, but a shot might be needed suddenly, I just turned the Mauser safety leaf straight up. Nice things about that: 1) You sure know if the safety is on...you can't see the sights! 2) You can jab it off with your thumb as the rifle comes up.)

Whatever rows your boat....

AC

Alberta Canuck---

Turn the safety straight up, you say?



Do you see a difference in operation or overall safety between straight up and straight out?

me neither.

Jack,

If you're talking about the middle position of a Mauser wing safety vs. the middle position of a Win. 70 style safety, I do see a difference. The Mauser wing safety blocks the sights.

Best,
Joe

[ 04-26-2003, 07:42: Message edited by: nextjoe ]

No, Jack, I don't.

So what? I must have missed your point. My posting was my personal preference, for consideration by the folks who have been talking about using the Beuhler style safety.

If you are asking do I see a difference between the Model 70 style safety and the Mauser safety, YES, I do.

I missed a fine game animal once because of that side-swing style safety. I had the safety sticking straight out, as you suggest, and was working through a patch of brush. As I emerged from the brush, the animal bounced out, slowly, in front of me. I raised the rifle, poked the safety forward to "off", aimed and pulled the trigger all faster than it takes to read this line.

No "boom"!! I pushed the safety again and pulled the trigger shortly before the animal trotted out of sight. Still no "boom"!

Looking down at the rifle, I could see why. A small piece of brush had found its way between the safety lever and the cocking piece. The safety, though pushed as far forward as it could go, had not gone forward enough. That can't happen as easily on a Mauser with the original safety....

I'm glad the animal was a Mule Deer, not a rhino.

Anyway, I'm not suggesting that folks who have Model 70's or the new M-1999's should alter their rifles to get a Mauser style safety. Just that I (that's me, only) like the original Mauser safety on Mauser style actions. YMMV

AC

[ 04-26-2003, 07:52: Message edited by: Alberta Canuck ]

Yes, in response to your picture. Turn the safety straight up.

Not all rifles I've seen come with scopes. Some, especially ones I used in brushy areas, come with nicely machined peep sights. Others, and this was the case on both some commercial Mausers and virtually all my English magazine rifles on Mauser actions, came with a standing bar and one or more folding leaves as a rear sight.

I personally prefer the perfectly flat-topped standing bar, with one vertical platinum line, right in the middle. Barring that, I like a very, very shallow "V" (almost flat) for both the rear sight "bar" and the leaves.

Those were the traditional sights on the many English guns I owned, and they worked very well.

The Brits had a lot of time in Africa and India to work those things out and I think they did a pretty decent job.

Again, YMMV.

AC

[ 04-26-2003, 09:26: Message edited by: Alberta Canuck ]