A friend fired a heavily overcharged load in his 25-06, and I want to determine if any damage was done to the lugs, etc. Thought I would use the tape-on-the-casehead trick. At what point in indicated slop should it go to the smith for proper gauging? .010? .020? .030?

Gauging with gauges and physical examination will be the way. Tape on cartridge cases only shows that tape will stick to cartridge cases.

Besides tape can compress giving a false reading...a piece of brass shim material 0.010" thick will work MUCH BETTER...AND IT WON'T RERALLY TELL YOU SQUAT because you don't have a before and after number to crunch...you DON'T know what the "headspace" was BEFORE the discombobulation.

Headspace is a method developed to standardize various pieces and parts pertaining to shooting, reloading, dies, chambers, etc...for the commercial market, more or less.

I have a couple of custom chambered rifles with "extremely" excessive "headspace", in the neighborhood of 0.015" to 0.025"...more than one firing and good bye case.

In my 338-06 I used a 0.020" washer drilled out to fit over the case and sit on top of the standard shell holder to size my cases once I had determined whathellandwhy.

That worked until Redding came out with their Custom Shell holder sets and I purchased a +0.020" shell holder. That rifle, done in the mid '60's, STILL puts 5 Horn 225 SP's into a quarter sized hole, 26" bbl, 0.600" freebore, at ~2750 fs, using a stiff load of IMR4320.

Ain't no thang Bro'...just setup your sizer to just touch the case shoulder...measure the before and after firing headspace, calculate the amount and buy a Redding custom shell holder that reduces that number by about 0.002" and forget all the hoop-la about "excessive" headspace.

You can also just face off the bolt lug slightly or lap in the bolt lug/lug recess face followed by the above seater setup.

You can make or buy a set of headspace gauges for less than $50 bucks.

Do a search on AR as there is quite a bit of information already available on "HOW TO DO IT..." or take it to a gunsmith and forget the shite about "bolt set back"...if you could open the bolt without the use of a soft hammer the odds of bolt setback are pretty low...in a MODERN metal rifle.

Midway sells gauges for $30. Just order some other stuff with them at the same time to offset the shipping a bit.

Did he blow a primer, or what? If he just flattened a primer, drive on. If the bolt is hard to open, then you might suspect set back lugs; what kind of rifle is it? Do what Nona said; fit the brass to the chamber. I assure you he didn't increase the headspace without setting the lug recesses in, and that is highly unlikely with a modern rifle if the brass and primer held. Slop? Fit the brass to the chamber anyway.

I see in the reloading section that you just blew a primer; no big deal. That won't do any damage other than gas cut the bolt face; the pressure was relieved. Modern rifles, and most old ones, will handle way more abuse than that.

Odds are if you generated enough pressure to set it back, you would have had to hammer the bolt open and you might even be picking shards out of your carcass.

When I was taking my warranty proof housing course for Remington Arms at the plant in Ilion, I asked the guy in the testing facility how much pressure an action could take before it blew up? It seemed to me that he just sort of ignored the question and kept going on with the standard course outline. After about ten minutes he quietly said:

"Brass begins to move at 65,000 PSI. Steel begins to move at 80,000 PSI. At 100,000 PSI, bad things begin to happen." That was all he said on the subject and I decided that I had already gotten a lot more than the tour ever did so I didn't push him farther.

Ya'll might think about this "stuff"...

HOW many reloaders or gunsmiths for that matter, have the facilities OR equipment to pressure test ANYTHING...much less comment on the metallurgy and pressures a particular piece of steel has or can withstand.

There are several ways to pressure test and some are destructive so you only get ONE shot...you either end up with a pile of pieces or a case with a hole in its side...you CAN'T REPEAT THE CONDITIONS exactly again.

HOW many companies, due to legal issues, give out that type of information willy-nilly...it's a good way to end up in a very long, expensive trial...as been the case with at least one famous brand.

There is a LOT OF BULLSHIT blown about on forums like this one without ANY TYPE OF RESPONCIBILITY OR CULPABLILITY...that is nothing but BS they read on some other forum from some other equally "unknowledgeable" individual/individuals...without ANY, or in most cases, very little authoritative proofs and the "stuff" coming out of the 40-60's or a bit later was equally nebulous of dependable fact, not withstanding Powley or Townsend Whelen or a few others who had access to ballistic labs and actually did the work and produced/published definitive results.

The strength and metallurgy in barrel/receivers varies between brands and BETWEEN PARTS and WAY to many people know DOODLY-SQUAT even about HOW to read a specifications page, WHAT the various definitions mean nor how to interpret the result...they just go blabbing shite online so they can become "experts in their own minds" mindlessly bandying about numbers like they were popcorn...if this were a court of law instead of the unregulated internet and you said something like that the opposing lawyer would just love it and have you for an aperitif because you were certainly not big enough for more than a small bite.

Your Remington man failed to qualify his answers...mild steel...used in some small cal barrels/receivers and is perfectly acceptable and safe and many other applications in the steel use industries can "start of move", "deform", at around 47KPSI...this information can be found online in most "engineering physical properties"/AISI/ASM/ISSF data bases of steel sections...there are MANY different 4000 series steels that run the gamut between 85KPSI to near 200KPSI and are still called "4120" or "4140"...was he speaking of ductility or malleability, instantaneous or long term, tensile or yield or ultimate...or what????

Not trying to diss anyone, just pointing out just how screwed up things get when posters talk about things without really thinking or knowing/defining what it is they really want to convey.

Remember in the old days what P.O. Ackley said about many of his creations velocities...and just how wrong those velos were found to be when chrono's became available to anyone who wanted one....and how, because of computers and software, we can now calculate velocities and pressures that closely match actual data when we shoot the strings.

I find it hard to believe that ANY company in todays litigious atmosphere would give out pressure information on the metallurgy of their various steels I don't care WHAT someone online said...they might say what the average pressure of a specific cartridge is loaded to and their components are rated for this pressure, but NOT specific information.

Again, as usual, the poster didn't give up ALL the pertinent information, the question seemed simple on the face of it but WASN'T, the responders each read the question from their own perspective and the answers were all over the place and probably descended into something other than what the OP actually wanted.

We haven't learned from our childhood games of "what did he say".

???

quote:

Originally posted by NONAGONAGIN:
Ya'll might think about this "stuff"...

HOW many reloaders or gunsmiths for that matter,".

I read your rant. I thought about it. I haven't got a clue what you are going on about. Did you used to post on the Practical Machinist using the name IRBill ?

quote:

Originally posted by speerchucker30x378:
Odds are if you generated enough pressure to set it back, you would have had to hammer the bolt open and you might even be picking shards out of your carcass.

When I was taking my warranty proof housing course for Remington Arms at the plant in Ilion, I asked the guy in the testing facility how much pressure an action could take before it blew up? It seemed to me that he just sort of ignored the question and kept going on with the standard course outline. After about ten minutes he quietly said:

"Brass begins to move at 65,000 PSI. Steel begins to move at 80,000 PSI. At 100,000 PSI, bad things begin to happen." That was all he said on the subject and I decided that I had already gotten a lot more than the tour ever did so I didn't push him farther.

Agree.

To the original poster, if you have fired cases from the day but before the overload and they have not been resized do the following:

Remove the firing pin assembly or if a Model 70 put the safety on in the half way position then chamber a fired case from the day.

Now see if you can move the bolt back and forward. A couple of thou is easy to feel. If you get that then chances are there has been some set back.

A head space gauge won't necessarily tell if there has been set back as they will only tell you if the rifle has too much headspace as compared to allowed specs.

But re read speerchucker30x378's post. I am also guess in with a name like that he has some experience with overloads

quote:

Originally posted by Michael McGuire:
[QUOTE]

But re read speerchucker30x378's post. I am also guess in with a name like that he has some experience with overloads

I have fired many, many, many Remington and Norma, red-nose and red-assed cartridges over the years.

Honestly guys, I didn't mean to smack that hornet's nest.
-The action is a Husqvarna Mauser pattern with side safety, probably manufactured in the 50's or 60's. The barrel (25-06) is a Shilen, recently installed by a local smith who at least seems to be competent. So it is a "modern" rifle, likely made with appropriate steels.
-We were able to open the bolt without using a hammer, but it was not easy. The primer fell out, but there was no evident damage (gas cutting) on the bolt face.
-I measured the case diameter just forward of the rim. As I recall, it was .005" larger than an unfired case. I have read that .002" is a lot.
-Based upon the foregoing comments, it is unlikely that any damage was done, i.e. all of the steel is still where it was before the event.

No doubt we all agree that when it comes to rifles and ballistics (interior and exterior) there is as much BS floating about as there is Nitrogen. I have been well indoctrinated with the Scientific Method, and also was given a healthy injection of skepticism. I had the good fortune to receive my education before it all went PC.

Thanks for the comments and advice. We will now put a few shots downrange and see what happens. Just for giggles I printed the SAAMI case and chamber drawings. Not sure what I will do with them, but I'll likely learn something. Like Joe Friday and Harold Vaughn, I like facts.

quote:

Originally posted by Brice:
A friend fired a heavily overcharged load in his 25-06, and I want to determine if any damage was done to the lugs, etc. Thought I would use the tape-on-the-casehead trick. At what point in indicated slop should it go to the smith for proper gauging? .010? .020? .030?

A reloader with a press, dies and shell holders and a method and or technique to measure the length of a case from the shoulder to the head of the case should be able to measure the length of the chamber from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face in thousandths. I have no ideal why reloaders are so hung up on gages that are go-gage, no go-gage length and field reject lengths. For the 30/06 that is 3 lengths out of a possible 14 different lengths.

AFTER ALL: They have no problem 'bumping' the shoulder? back .002".

F. Guffey

Again, I have a 30/06 chamber that has .016" added between the shoulder and bolt face. When forming cases for that chamber I adjust the die off the shell holder .014" when sizing 280 Remington cases. The 280 Remington case is longer than the 30/06 from the shoulder to the case head by .051". After sizing I have the 'magic .002" clearance. AND I have .090" case head protrusion from bottom of the extractor cut to the case head. Out of the box my Mauser 98s have .110" case head protrusion from the face of the barrel, then I add clearance.

F. Guffey

quote:

Originally posted by Brice:
Honestly guys, I didn't mean to smack that hornet's nest.
-The action is a Husqvarna Mauser pattern with side safety, probably manufactured in the 50's or 60's.

If its one of those Husqvarnas with the pretty purple/red colored receivers' then you can rest assured that its made from some sort of funky, Swedish, chrome vanadium steel and it's a lot tougher material than that found in your run of the mill Mausers and 700 Remingtons. I don't believe I have ever seen one set back or blown up. Even in the small rings. I have however seen a LOT of the mag boxes and extractors blown all to hell when the case heads failed. The case head in modern Mausers seems to act like a pop valve and usually gives out and vents before serious damage is done to the receiver's. I have however, seen the odd person take a few shards from this tendency. Not a good thing I suppose but, I'm neither arguing or supporting the way they work. It's just an observation.

quote:

Originally posted by Brice:
A friend fired a heavily overcharged load in his 25-06..

What does the overcharged brass look like? How does it compare to earlier examples of fired brass from the same rifle?