KevinNY,

You mean that we cannot convince a liberal that they are wrong ?

Oh no, my life has been wasted, but it has been fun.

Hammer

Hello,
Whether the action is PF or CRF has nothing to do with the degree of accuracy with the particular action for most are referring to Mausers in this type of conversation and reasons given for less than stellar accuracy is that the Mauser actions(and it's variants) are normally not as stiff as the straight walled, round type actions as in 700's, etc.
Mausers, Win Pre 64's, etc. can be made to shoot well, but the work required is more and it is not a cost/reward favorable situation. I had and shot for a number of years a National Match/XC type match rifle built on a Win. pre 64 action and w/ Krieger barrel and proper stock and it shot very well, but you will not see very many of them on the firing line. All of those machine cuts in a typical Mauser action are (thumb relief cut for feeding from stripper clips in port side of reciever wall-yuk!!) not condusive to stiffness and stability plus the flat bottom all adds to being better suited for sporting rifle. Keep in mind that the after market mfg's have almost exclusively concentrated on the Rem 700 for there are so many of them out there being used for match, military, police, etc. and that tends to support the Rem. push feed actions a great deal.
The 700's do work well for in rapid sitting and rapid prone, the shooter must fire 10 aimed, accurate shots in 60 seconds-standing to sitting,200 yards and then 10 aimed accurate shots in 70 seconds at 300 yards-standing to prone. Skilled, practiced shooter will produce groups much smaller than the palm of your hand for each of these stages. Can not imagine a hunting situation requiring such shooting, but give it a try sometime. A failure to feed, double feed, failure to extract, etc. will ruin your day at the match. Do such failures occur, yes, but not very often.
For any other action, Winchester, Sako, Mauser, etc. it is not easy to obtain items needed to compete and the typical good 'smith for match or tactical rifles do not do much work on them and that is a detrement as well.
My favorite sporting rifle is a little Swede Mauser in high grade walnut stock, 6.5x55, open sights, good to 200-300 yards, low recoil, very accurate for hunting rifle, but not suitable for match shooting or extreme accuracy requirements. Favor Center!!
dsiteman

Before I start I'll say that I generally prefer CRF.

However, coming straight off the factory line I don't know that there is much difference in the reliability in a 70 or 700. One may get a great one or one that was put together at 4:30pm on Christmas Eve that won't work at all. The factories are in the business of turning out rifles as fast as they can for as cheap as they can and the cost of dealing with the very few that get sent back is considered acceptable.

Where I like the CRF is when someone of great talent and skill has taken the time to replace inadequate parts and make the thing work right. This involves more then the extractor but involves magazine box design, magazine lips, ramp, extractor fit, brass used, ejection port, timing, etc. Then in my opinion you have a superior rifle. I'm also quite sure I could go down to Wally world, buy any 30-06 off the rack mount a 4x weaver and kill game the world over. And chances are I'd survive. But I like hunting with a refined rifle and it increases my chances of beating Mr. Murphy.

In short if you are going to hunt with an off the shelf gun I see little difference in PF or CRF. If you are going to have one worked on by a first rate rifle smith, not some wannabe, then I prefer a CRF.

quote:

Originally posted by KevinNY:
Why do people start these threads?

No ones opinion is going to be changed, its a ford vs. chevy thing.

Arguing with the "My PF is better than your CRF folks" is like trying to convince a liberal that they are wrong.

Well, I started it, because with recent talk
of the benifits of CRF, I wondered what I was
missing. All purely for my education. If someone else gets something out of it well and
good.
I couldn't care less about changing someone's opinon.
I really enjoyed the thread,and diverse opinions. It will take me a few days to assimilate it all, but it seems as I half expected, much ado about nothing. IE a good
PF may be better than a dodgy CRF. (and Vica versa). I liked the fella running with his
bolt open, the one who wouldn't take his PF to
Africa may need to trust his PH/Guide more, I would like to get "one more makes four" for DG.
And I'm the only one to mention the drawback of
accidently ejecting a very handy live cartridge
on a slight double shuffle.
All in all something for me to think about, and
at least know about.
Thanks fellers.
JOhn L.

quote:

Originally posted by JAL:



And I'm the only one to mention the drawback of
accidently ejecting a very handy live cartridge
on a slight double shuffle.
All in all something for me to think about, and
at least know about.
Thanks fellers.
JOhn L.

Although as you mentioned above the CRF would indeed "eject a very handy live cartridge on a slight double shuffle", but with a PF that same "slight double shuffle" would very likely result in a "double feed". The first scenerio would only be of dire consequence if the magazine was @ or near empty. Otherwise, a fresh round could be picked up on another stroke of the bolt and chambered.

With the "double feed" a much more dire situation would be @ hand. (an incapacitated weapon) And yes one could turn the weapon upside down while making sure that the bolt was not fully rearward, thus dropping out the doulble fed round, then without moving the bolt rearward closing the bolt on the chambered round etc. etc.. But, what would the natural tendency be? Working the bolt again?

Now before we here about "b'wana wanna bes", "armchair b'wanas" etc. and dangerous game, this situation could be just as unapealing when a "trophy" buck. elk, squill etc. (whatever that is to the individual) is the subject of the fumbling around with the rifle.

Murphies law here folks, the CRF is less likely to cause serious problems with "excess operator headspace", as in green recruits in a combar situation, or an adrenelin charged hunter encountering his first buck. (perhaps a trophy in his/her eyes no matter the size)

JOhn L

If the bloke running with bolt was really concerned then he would have a rifle that is vertical stack in line feed. But to get that he would have buy either one of the big Wbys or a Sauer or HS Precision of the Rem 700 African Big Game Rifle, all PFs

Mike

[QUOTE]Originally posted by wildcat junkie:
With the "double feed" a much more dire situation would be @ hand.

Sure, just wanting to mention all posibilities.
JL.

PS Of course, if it was the last of 3 rounds
of a CRF,it would be worse than the last of a PF. possibly.

quote:

The SMLE is besides the point here. I'm talking about the Mauser design by itself.

The SMLE is NOT besides the point - the point of th ethread was to discuss the relative merits of PF/CRF - not the Mauser design per se.

The point is that everyone makes a big deal about CRF being better to hunt dangerous game and yet one of the most successful battle rifles ever built was PF... ie the SMLE...

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
you guys make it easy to see who hunts turkeys and who hunts buffalo...

That right there sounds like some insecurity.

You know, the "My p**** is bigger than yours, so I'm a bigger man" thing.

You're right, I've never hunted buffalo. Don't plan to. And don't really feel like my life will be incomplete because of it....

yeah, it would seem that any hunter w/o a controlled round feed rifle shouldn't even be allowed on the african continent. that little snide comment sounded like the way liberals respond to arguments and as such, really said a lot. i guess all the buffalo that were killed w/ weatherby's, remingtons (which i don't like either), sako's, you name it were just flukes. actually sounded like a bit of snobbery to be honest. and didn't a bunch of african game depts issue push feed post 64 m70's? and i know finn aagard had one and loved it. but what'd he know abt africa or rifles either one.

i guess i'll just resign myself to my pathetic turkey hunting existence.

My little 99 300 Savage is a controlled round feed isn't it, even though it doesn't jave the Mauser claw extractor?

(Just thought I'd post that so I could get in the last word!)

Readin' this old argument is more fun than Watching a food fight! Wayne