Has anyone upgraded a Remington 722 to the newest
version of Remington's rivetless extractor? I haven't looked at the newest version and don't know what machining of the bolt face is needed.

Also, is it practical to open up the 722's bolt face for the new 6.8 Rem SPC and install the new
extractor?

Don’t know for a fact that this would work, but have you considered just replacing the 722 bolt head with one from a newer 700 bolt with the larger sized face? The bolt head is a separate piece that is brazed to the bolt body, and it might end up being cheaper and stronger than converting the old bolt.

Pulled out all my articles and info on the 6.8mm SPC and found that Bill Jarvis of Jarvis Custom: http://www.jarvis-custom.com/ does a conversion of 700’s to 6.8mm SPC.

You might talk to him and see what your options are.

Rick 0311,

You have to be kidding - the Remington bolt has
a brazed on head????? I looked real close and
could not detect one. Are you feeding this old
man a line just to confuse him? I know the bolt
handle is silver soldered on.

Before I spent a lot of money on machining the old bolt, I'd buy a replacement bolt from Pacific Tool & Gauge. Have your gunsmith fit it to your rifle and have the luxury of having 2 bolts fitted to 1 rifle. JMO.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
Don’t know for a fact that this would work, but have you considered just replacing the 722 bolt head with one from a newer 700 bolt with the larger sized face? The bolt head is a separate piece that is brazed to the bolt body, and it might end up being cheaper and stronger than converting the old bolt.

A friend cut the slot on the wrong side for his first Sako extractor conversion, so he gave me the bolt. I wanted to see how the bolthead was attached so I set out to remove it. I drilled out (endmill) the cross pin that is on all Rem bolts but barely visible on most of them. Then I heated up the bolt head, nothing would move. So I slit the bolt body on both sides with a jeweler's saw and still would not move. I heated the whole mess up to cherry red and finally got it apart. The silver solder is there but it is on the washer that becomes the "dry fire stop" in the assembled bolt. The washer is needed to provide a base for the ejector spring to push against as the ejector hole is drilled completely through the bolt head.
I'd say that it is definately not "interchangeable".

Jay

The new Remingtons have a cam-like projection on the inner ring of the bolt to place tension on the extractor and your 722 doesn't have that. Your extractor is free and only stays in place because of the ejector. Later Remingtons used the riveted extractor. Your best bet is to have a smith put in a SAKO style extractor or the extractor from a Weatherby (HOWA) Vanguard. Brownells carries the SAKO style. http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ProductDetail.as...0+SAKO+EXTRACTOR+KIT

I would recommend going with the Sako extractor conversion. For what you spend, it's a much better extractor than the factory Remington.

I can tell you from first hand experience that you can not use the 700 extractor on a 722 bolt. You will not be able to close the bolt over a loaded round.

quote:

Originally posted by Old Elk Hunter:
Rick 0311,

You have to be kidding - the Remington bolt has a brazed on head????? I looked real close and could not detect one. Are you feeding this old man a line just to confuse him? I know the bolt handle is silver soldered on.

The bolt is a hollow tube with a handle and a head brazed (silver soldered) on..One on one end, the other on t'uther!

quote:

Originally posted by Old Elk Hunter:
Rick 0311,

You have to be kidding - the Remington bolt has
a brazed on head????? I looked real close and
could not detect one. Are you feeding this old
man a line just to confuse him? I know the bolt
handle is silver soldered on.

Remington’s aren’t the only company that has multi-part bolts that are brazed together, newer Winchesters also use a sectional bolt.

We had a huge “discussion†on here once about welding/brazing/soldering and an awful lot of people confuse the last two. Without starting a completely new thread, high temperature brazing (the process used on rifle bolts) creates an extremely strong joint that can equal, and in some cases surpass, the strength of the materials being joined. This is assuming of course that the process is done correctly, which admittedly, Remington does not always pull off real well. Having said that, I have never heard of a single instance where a bolt head has come off.

Just my opinion, but I would not use a Sako or M16 style extractor for a variety of reasons, not the least being safety. The Remington gas venting system was NOT designed to function with a cut-out in one of the lugs. Another thing to consider is that the ejector is not positioned to function properly with an extractor in the position that a Sako ends up when installed on a Remington bolt. Lots of people have trouble with empties ejecting up (like into the scope) instead of out after installing Sako extractors on Remingtons.

Other than anecdotal info from people who make money selling these conversions I have NEVER seen any credible evidence that this conversion is necessary or even advisable...and I have looked for it.

quote:

Just my opinion, but I would not use a Sako or M16 style extractor for a variety of reasons, not the least being safety. The Remington gas venting system was NOT designed to function with a cut-out in one of the lugs. Another thing to consider is that the ejector is not positioned to function properly with an extractor in the position that a Sako ends up when installed on a Remington bolt. Lots of people have trouble with empties ejecting up (like into the scope) instead of out after installing Sako extractors on Remingtons.

YES and no.The properly installed SAKO style extractor is not cut into the lug but at the 10 o'clock (facing the front of the bolt) position immediately adjacent to the lug. True, this does "weaken" the Remington gas handling qualities of the "three circles of steel" in the bolt head but, I have all four of my Remingtons converted this way and have never had a blown primer or ruptured case to tell if it is dangerous or not. As you are inquiring about a 722 that has a faulty (?) extractor, I think you will be hard pressed to find an original extractor for that rifle. If it were me, I would have the SAKO or Vanguard extractor installed and not worry about it. Also, with my rifles, I have never had the fired case touch the scope on ejection nor has any case ever bounced back into the open receiver. My two cents worth.

Masterifleman,

You are correct, the Sako conversions don’t cut into the lug. However, I question your logic in saying that they are safe based only on the fact that you personally have never had a blown primer or a ruptured case. If there is never a reason for the venting system to have to do its job anything or nothing will work just fine!

This conversion is a popular one, I agree, but I will stand by my statement that I have seen nothing but anecdotal evidence and marketing hype to back up its need,or its supposed superiority over a factory Remington extractor. Because something happens to be popular or in vogue doesn’t really mean much.

I would refer you to issue 123 of Handloader Magazine and an article by Layne Simpson on this very topic.

quote:

Just my opinion, but I would not use a Sako or M16 style extractor for a variety of reasons, not the least being safety. The Remington gas venting system was NOT designed to function with a cut-out in one of the lugs. Another thing to consider is that the ejector is not positioned to function properly with an extractor in the position that a Sako ends up when installed on a Remington bolt. Lots of people have trouble with empties ejecting up (like into the scope) instead of out after installing Sako extractors on Remingtons.

Other than anecdotal info from people who make money selling these conversions I have NEVER seen any credible evidence that this conversion is necessary or even advisable...and I have looked for it.

Absolute truth there I'll tell ya. And that's exactly why some jobs are better left to the pro's. A person who is experienced at doing these modifications knows enough to not compromise safety by machining into the bolt lug. A person who is experienced at doing these modifications knows how to correct the flight path of a spent case so it doesn't hit the scope.

A person who is experienced at doing these modifications knows enough to thoroughly test the job to insure reliability and therefore instilling confidence in the shooter that his weapon will function as intended when called upon to do so. A person who is experienced at doing these modifications... well, the list goes on.

I would suggest to those who are considering having a Sako type extractor installed in their Reminton 700 or 700 style bolt, be safe, hire a pro, someone who know what they are doing and who will stand behind their work so you don't have bad experiences like those mentioned above by Rick...

Perhaps my opinions on this are in large part due to my personal habit of needing to have problem BEFORE I start seeking a solution.

Go and do a search on this site on the subject of extractor failures/malfunctions and see how many of those concern Remington 700‘s. Do a survey of working gunsmiths and ask them how many broken Remington 700 extractors they have had to replace during their careers.

I will bet you that Remington extractors don’t break or malfunction any more than any other out there...including the infamous Mauser types.

I know of smiths who do the conversions so they function properly...but I know of no one who adapts the gas venting system to function with that conversion in place. Maybe they are out there, but I haven’t heard of them.

Thanks, I had no idea the Remington bolt head was "attached". I have mixed feelings about the
Sako sytle extractor. A customer came into my fiend's shop with a Remington that had been shot
with a reload. The reloader had been loading 44 magnum with 2400 before he loaded his 25-06 rounds. He remembered adjusting the powder measure to get the best load for the 25-06 but he doesn't remember changing to a different powder. He fired this 25-06 with a full charge of 2400. He said it kicked like Hell but the gun didn't blow up. Instead the round expanded enough to lock up the action. When it was finally disassembled the front ring on the bolt looked like a funnel and had flared to the point of partially expanding the ring on the back of the barrel. Until that time I had not paid much attention to the Remington three rings of steel safety claim. Now that I have seen it work, I think it is worthwhile. And the bolt handle stayed on while we beat it with a 6' long 2x4 to
get the bolt out of the action. The rifle was toast anyway so we didn't mind using the 2x4.
And on the flipside, I have seen two Remington bolt handles snap off new rifles when the customer cycled the bolt once firmly. Makes you wonder about consistent manufacturing processes.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
Perhaps my opinions on this are in large part due to my personal habit of needing to have problem BEFORE I start seeking a solution.

Go and do a search on this site on the subject of extractor failures/malfunctions and see how many of those concern Remington 700‘s. Do a survey of working gunsmiths and ask them how many broken Remington 700 extractors they have had to replace during their careers.

I will bet you that Remington extractors don’t break or malfunction any more than any other out there...including the infamous Mauser types.

I know of smiths who do the conversions so they function properly...but I know of no one who adapts the gas venting system to function with that conversion in place. Maybe they are out there, but I haven’t heard of them.

Granted, if Remingtons design was seriously flawed, then I'm pretty sure that they would have done away with that particular style of extractor. Remingtons extractors have evolved somewhat over the years but the basic style is still going strong.

That said, If you've been in business long enough, you will have seen your share of extractor failures. Of ALL the guns that have come through my shop with extractor failures, not merely problems, but actual failures, the majority of these have been Remingtons.

While extractor failures isn't big business here in Utah, I occasionally will get them, and when one fails, and they do fail, more times than not it will be a Remington that fails for whatever reason.

I've never personally had an extractor fail. I'm guessing it could be quite disconcerting to have happen on a once in a life time hunt. And around these parts, people are pretty serious about having anything interfere with their hunting, so, in an effort to eliminate ANY possible chance of failure, people will opt to have the potentially weak link of the gun taken care of before it becomes a source of trouble.

And experience tells me, that within the Remington bolt action rifle, the potentially weak link is, provided the trigger has been properly maintained, the factory extractor. It doesn't mean that the extractor WILL fail, it means that there is a real possibility that it could, and for some folks, that's enough to justify the modification.

malm,

You said that the “majority’ of extractor failures you have seen were Remington’s...what were the others, and why were those failures not considered to be a weak link in those systems?

Just curious!

Just to clarify my last post....

I have noticed in my time on AR that ANY problem encountered with a Remington is automatically, and normally without question, attributed to poor design... while the tons of problems encountered, and reported on AR, with either pre-64 Winchesters or Mausers always seem to be totally rationalized as being caused by something the owner or a gunsmith has done wrong.

The logic is just confusing I guess.

What size extractor do you need .222 or 308? I have some squirreled away and it doesn't apprear that I will ever own a m722 again. Bill Meyer

Bill,

You have a PM.

Rojelio

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
malm,

You said that the “majority’ of extractor failures you have seen were Remington’s...what were the others, and why were those failures not considered to be a weak link in those systems?

Just curious!

That's fair. I have seen Savage failures, mostly those were due to an accumulation of crap preventing the spring loaded detent from returning the extractor to it's correct position. Proper maintenance would prevent most of that. Same with current Winchesters.

Have had Ruger extractors with broken claws which appeared to be too brittle. Not a common occurance though. Mausers extractor failures were mainly as a result of some hack taking too much material off the hook to get it to hop the rim as in direct feed.

The Remington's that were not out right broken loose from their rivets, were soft and flared so badly they could not get a grip on a rim if they tried. The Remington is nothing more than a relatively fragile spring type clip, and if the heat treat is off by just a little, they are either just right, too brittle, or, too soft.

I think if you were to ask the bulk of gunsmiths who regularly work on Remingtons what they consider to be the weakest part of the rifle, I believe if they are honest, they will more times than not, say it is the extractor. And I don't necessarily think it is a design flaw as much as the nature of that particular beast. That is my experience.

malm,

The smiths I know who work on more Remington’s than anyone else (other than those at Remington) are the Marine armorers at Quantico, Va. And I have spoken with lots of them over the years. Unless they have all been lying to me (which I doubt) they haven’t had problems with the extractors. If they had they would have gone to the Sako modification along time ago since

Of course, the Marines don’t experiment with hot handloads and they only let qualified armorers work on their rifles, so perhaps that might make a bit of difference.

Remington stopped using riveted extractors in 1980 except for the belted magnum’s, so that also might be a factor if the ones coming to you were pre 1980 rifles.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
malm,

The smiths I know who work on more Remington’s than anyone else (other than those at Remington) are the Marine armorers at Quantico, Va. And I have spoken with lots of them over the years. Unless they have all been lying to me (which I doubt) they haven’t had problems with the extractors. If they had they would have gone to the Sako modification along time ago since

Of course, the Marines don’t experiment with hot handloads and they only let qualified armorers work on their rifles, so perhaps that might make a bit of difference.

First off, the Marine Corps isn't going to authorize any modifications that they don't deem necessary. Marine Corps Armorers, and I have a few years experience as one, pay meticulous attention to every piece of a weapon. They are inspected and re-inspected and if anything is even remotely suspect, it is pulled from service and repaired.

Next time you talk to the Armorers at Quantico, ask them if they stock replacement Remington extractors. When they tell you that they do, ask them why?

Remington offers replacement extractors because sometimes they malfunction. Remington acknowledges this and makes extras for sell. Extractors for the older 722's are practically impossible to obtain so rather than scrap an otherwise perfectly operating rifle, a Sako style extractor can be PROFESSIONALLY installed and the gun can be saved. Hey would you look at that, we are back at the beginning...

malm,

Brother, you know as well as I do that every manufacturer sells spare and/or replacement parts for their rifles so assuming that Remington selling replacement extractors equates to some admission or indication that those extractors are a bad design is just plain silly.

Of course the armorers at Quantico keep spare extractors in stock...they also keep supplies of every other part of the rifle in stock, so I’m not sure what significance I’m supposed to attach to that.

Since you were a Marine armorer you must also know that if they found an ongoing or inherent problem with those rifles they would fix that problem just like they did with the aluminum bottom metal, the barrels, and the stocks that Remington originally supplied on the M40’s. All of those factory items were replaced with the best available parts they could find. Same was true with the scopes and bases. When the Redfield showed its weaknesses it was replaced. When the Unertl got out dated, it too was replaced.

I find it interesting that in 40 years of continuous service the Corps still uses the same stock 700 action with nothing but factory parts. No after market triggers or firing pins...and no Sako extractors. Everything on the rifle has been updated and/or replaced except for the receiver.

Semper Fi!

quote:

Originally posted by Rick 0311:
malm,

Brother, you know as well as I do that every manufacturer sells spare and/or replacement parts for their rifles so assuming that Remington selling replacement extractors equates to some admission or indication that those extractors are a bad design is just plain silly.

Of course the armorers at Quantico keep spare extractors in stock...they also keep supplies of every other part of the rifle in stock, so I’m not sure what significance I’m supposed to attach to that.

Since you were a Marine armorer you must also know that if they found an ongoing or inherent problem with those rifles they would fix that problem just like they did with the aluminum bottom metal, the barrels, and the stocks that Remington originally supplied on the M40’s. All of those factory items were replaced with the best available parts they could find. Same was true with the scopes and bases. When the Redfield showed its weaknesses it was replaced. When the Unertl got out dated, it too was replaced.

I find it interesting that in 40 years of continuous service the Corps still uses the same stock 700 action with nothing but factory parts. No after market triggers or firing pins...and no Sako extractors. Everything on the rifle has been updated and/or replaced except for the receiver.

Semper Fi!

Agreed! But nobody's equating the selling of spare parts as an admission that a design is faulty, but the significance of this means that they, the manufacturer, expect parts to fail.

Not once did I say that the Remington extractor was inherently 'bad', or, prone to fail, what I said was, they CAN fail, and that of all the extractor failure that have come through my shop, the majority, certainly not all, were Remington's. Whether they broke, came un-riveted, became jamed under the extractors retention lip of the bolt nose, or whatever.

The good news is, for folks who love their Remingtons but would prefer an alternative extractor system to that offered by the factory, the Sako and M-16 styles, when installed correctly, offer the customer peace of mind whether it be real or imagined.

And if my Marine Corps is happy with the factory extractor in their M-40's, then Oooohraaah!