It seems that this has been a well discussed topic on here, but I still have a couple questions. Thanks for bearing with my ignorance!

Background info:

I have a handful of rifles (98 mauser,1903 Springfeild, M1 garand, and m1 carbine)that suffered through a house fire. They were in a safe that protected them to some degree. For some reason the fire dept cut the safe open and filled it with water while it was still hot. I am not sure what affect this had on the rifles besides rusting them.

I have called Blanchard Metals of Salt Lake UT and was informed that a 35 Rockwell hardness is desirable on receivers and a 45 hardness for bolts. They also said they can give it a carbon case depth of 10-15 thousandths. They suggested that I have a local shop test the hardness of my parts to see where they are at before sending them the actions.

My questions are:

1. I have a local machine shop that has a "Rockwell hardness tester". Will any kind of hardness testing do? Or should I be looking for someone with a special kind of testing equipment?

2. What locations should I test the Garand bolt/receiver? The mausers and 1903's?

3. Should I shoot for the same hardness (35 on actions, 45 on bolts) on all the actions? Or does a Garand action need a different treatment than say a Mauser?

4. If they do need to be re-hardened, what carbon case depth should I have them do?

I am mainly concerned with the Garand and m1 carbine actions to begin with as they are something I can work on myself once I know they are still hard or have been re-hardened.

I've herd that looking at the springs can be a judge of if the rifles metal was damaged or not by the heat. It seems that the springs are still "springy" if that helps any.

I know some people might think this is more trouble than its worth and that I should just replace them with new ones. Even if its ends up being slightly less economical, I would much rather rebuild the rifles that have been passed down through our family. I really appreciate any advice you can give me. Thank you, Brent.

M1s are much harder than 35 rc. Carbines are usually fairly soft. If all the springs are still perfect. then you have not damaged the receivers either. Probably. If they are soft, then junk the lot. How are the stocks? if the metal is damaged, the stocks will be burned off. I usually do not recommend fixing guns that have been in serious fires but yours might not have suffered serious damage. Hardness testers are all the same; Rockwell C is the scale to use. Yes, Garands are made from 8620 steel and Mausers are made from 1120 or so. Springfields depends on the serial number and range from 1020 to high nickel steel. All this is not something to jump into with one solution in mind.

Thanks dpcd.

The stocks are intact, but blackened. I will cut into one and see what it looks like under the surface and report back.

The burned part of the stock only penetrated surface deep. I can see wood color after sawing into the stock. I think I will go ahead and have them tested and post my findings.

I assume on the bottom side of the receiver out of sight would be a good spot for testing? Maybe the bottom of the front ring? And where should I test the bolt?

Thank you,
Brent

Test the bolt near the lugs. Behind the lugs is just a firing pin housing, except for those with a rear lug, like a Mauser. If the stocks aren't burned off you are probably OK. It takes time to raise the temp. to damaging levels. If I remember correctly the tempering temp. for RC 35 is around 600 deg. F. Chances are the stocks will suffer damage much quicker than the action.......Tom

I recommend you get everything you might want to use tested. Until you do, all you will have are your (or someone else's) guesses. together will $3.50,that will get you a nice latte at Starbucks.

Most hard woods generally start to char/burn at temps over 700° F. The wood will provide some insulation to the metal it covers, but it will do nothing to protect the uncovered metal parts of the rifle.

And, any parts of the rifle not insulated by wood or something else will likely get just about as hot as the flames were...if the fire burned for other than a brief time, the uncovered metal may have gotten even hotter than the flame.

And too, as steel is a very good conductor of heat even internal parts may have gotten hot enough to be more or less useless or even unsafe. That includes he bolt locking lugs, bolt and action cocking cams, sears, etc.

If I wanted to use a gun from a fire, I'd replace all the small parts and have all the large important ones tested.

Better yet, if you have good home-owner's fire insurance, I'd probably "sell" them all to the insurance company by filing a claim for their replacement value.

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:
I recommend you get everything you might want to use tested. Until you do, all you will have are your (or someone else's) guesses. together will $3.50,that will get you a nice latte at Starbucks.

Most hard woods generally start to char/burn at temps over 700° F. The wood will provide some insulation to the metal it covers, but it will do nothing to protect the uncovered metal parts of the rifle.

And, any parts of the rifle not insulated by wood or something else will likely get just about as hot as the flames were...if the fire burned for other than a brief time, the uncovered metal may have gotten even hotter than the flame.

And too, as steel is a very good conductor of heat even internal parts may have gotten hot enough to be more or less useless or even unsafe. That includes he bolt locking lugs, bolt and action cocking cams, sears, etc.

If I wanted to use a gun from a fire, I'd replace all the small parts and have all the large important ones tested.

Better yet, if you have good home-owner's fire insurance, I'd probably "sell" them all to the insurance company by filing a claim for their replacement value.

The above is good advice. Have everything tested. Since the guns were in a safe they weren't in the flames. That is why I think it is worth having them tested. AC is right about the charring temp. of hardwoods but the finishes go at lower temps. Good Luck.......Tom

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:

Better yet, if you have good home-owner's fire insurance, I'd probably "sell" them all to the insurance company by filing a claim for their replacement value.

Three of my actions/barreled actions were involved in Lon Paul's unfortunate fire last summer. Two were magnum size, stepped ring, slant magazine Oberndorf actions with Rigby markings, which were planned to be the basis for a 400/350 and a .375 H&H rifle (I had an original Rigby stock for the 400/350, which also went up in smoke).

To give my insurance company credit, they did the best they could to come up with a replacement value for these actions, and we finally arrived at a reasonable figure, but if the actions are indeed unusable, I have no idea how I can ever replace them.

The company graciously allowed me to keep the actions and they are in the process of being evaluated to see if their temper was compromised and if so, if they can be re-heat treated. "Selling" them to the insurance company was simply not an option.

Canuck: We had good insurance that helped cover their estimated cost. I just could never bring myself to toss some of them like the custom Mauser sporters my grandfather built. Turnbull is fixing up an old Colt SAA which I am very excited about.

Some are clearly not worth messing with like the Rem 1100; by the time I replace the stock and a few parts and have it re-blued it would be double what a nice used one would cost.

I took a couple parts to a local shop to have tested this morning, but they didn't seem to know what they were doing so I don't trust the numbers he got. Does anyone know a place in the Phoenix area that could help me with this?

Try Dan Pedersen at Classic Barrel and Gun Works in Prescott. If he can't do it he'll certainly know who to trust to perform the testing in the Phoenix area.

Thank you, I will try him. I make frequent trips to Prescott.