Can I get professional bluing results at home? (or can I come close?)

absolutely, what JB said, if you want the salt tanks in your house. hot blueing is not hard, the work is in the surface prep. While coloring the metal you are just babysitting it while it takes a nice 280 degree hot tube.

The salts are mean tho. Extremly corrosive and really hot aswell. A rememberable experiance if you get yourself, I am told. I have not gotten myself yet.

On my first gun, the results were very pleasing. My Squire-Bingham now has a beautifull blue. Only way to tell its not a factory finish is the lack of tool marks on it now.

JBelk,

I wasn't sure from your post if you favor express blue for home bluing, or don't like it. I have tried it, and got pleasing results, but have not taken it in the field to test durability. I used the 'Belgian Blue' old Herter's formula from Brownells.

I'm a little confused about what the process is -- the metal definitely rusts when you apply the solution, so does that make it a modified rust blue? Is there a selenium dye that imparts the color (like Birchwood Casey's Permablue)? Or it the process a little bit of both?

Todd

Todd---

I use Belgium Blue on small parts like shrouds, scope mounts and rings, grip caps and swivels.

It wears much better than any hot dip and it *looks* the same as slow rust.

I always advise a beginner to start with express blue because you can see the results, make your mistakes, and learn the process all in one day instead of a week.

Express blues are slow rust blues with faster acting chemicals to make it rust faster.....in fact, most slow rust blues can be speeded up if you know the chemical realitys and know how to alter them.

The color comes from oxidation.......you can see the same thing on any piece of rusty steel...if you wire brush or steel wool a rusty piece of steel and see a brown stain on the metal. That's "browning". If you boil the rusty peice before steel wooling it the iron (ferrous) oxide will be chemically changed to ferric oxide which is a blue or black stain instead of brown. That's "bluing".

Different chemicals give slightly different colors and gives a slightly different times of rusting.

All these solutions work the same basic way.....the acids and metallic salts cause the iron in a gun part to oxidize...rust. That rust is changed to have even more oxygen as a part of it by boiling and the extra rust is carded off. There is a stain left behind on the steel. The next coat again rust the iron that hasn't already been rusted....and it's again boiled and carded...the stain gets darker. And again and again the process is repeated until there's nothing left TO rust and the stain is an even, rich, matte blue that sparkles in the sun and wears as well as most plating.

*Generally* speaking, the solution that rust the metal slower is tougher than those that rust fast, but Belgium Blue is VERY tough and beautiful. I've got several rifles that have been carried by Alaskan bear guides for 30 years and are still blued. Worn? Sure they are, but still blue.

Jack,

I'm glad we had this talk! I just de-barrelled one of my Mausers, planning to grind the charger hump down and set it up right with Leupold bases instead of Weavers. Anyway, I was planning on taking it in to have it hot blued again, thinking that was more durable -- I guess I will do it myself!

Your outline of the bluing process reminds me of a thought I had before -- the goal being to oxidize the 'red' rust to get a black oxide, does adding a mild oxidizer like hydrogen peroxide to the boiling bath improve the result?

Todd

Oh yes, and to Alaskan Al --

Now that we know the true nature of the Belgian Blue and it's durability from Jack, I can highly endorse it's appearance. My first attempt, on a Mauser I hand polished myself, looks beautiful, much nicer than any commercially blued guns I own. And it is very, very easy -- just remember to clean thoroughly with mineral spirits, then acetone; doesn't hurt to boil for a few minutes too. It takes a few more coats than they specify to get a good blue, especially on case hardened actions. If you are having trouble getting a part to blue, it may help to put on up to 3 bluing applications before you card it off.

And don't forget to de-grease your steel wool, and also don't use the stainless variety!

Good luck,
Todd

IF you must try it, buy your express blue from brownells or other. Do not make it yourself. The book formulas from Angler and Dunlap contain mecuric chloride and strong oxidizers, like potassium chlorate. No acids are used. The mecuric chloride is a nuerotoxin. Potassium chlorate is a powerfull oxidizer, is can be explosive and shock sensitive if it is mixed with a fuel, or detonate if mixed with a strong reducer. I have had only fair results with those formulas. Sometimes you get odd lavender shades. I did have a model 12 shotgun come out great. All in all I wouldn't fuss with it anymore. I am older, wiser, and more pragamantic. You will not save any money, you may hurt yourself, and you are likely to get a substandard job. Best bet is to do your own prep and have a gunsmith dunk it in his tank.

There is 25 years of experience in one paragraph, enjoy! : )

scot---

Angier's book has more than 150 formulas in it. Some are acid based, some have chlorates, some have mercuric chloride, a lot of them have things that have changed names a dozen times and nobody knows what the ingredient is now.

For the last 15 years or so commercial slow rust solutions have been available. The danger was in mixing more than using.

Since nobody I know drinks the stuff and rubber gloves are standard equipment I see far LESS hazard in rust bluing on the stove, with professional results, at roughly 10% of the cost, than caustic salts bluing anywhere in the house .......and that was the question.

_______________________________

Most rust blues are many, many times tougher, longer lasting, rust resistant, and more beautiful than the best of the hot dip blues...
BUT rust blues are not equal. Some are not as tough, rust resistant, or beautiful as others.

Some steels take one rust blue much better than others.....some rust blue fades to gray on some steels. Some rust blue will "after rust", others don't because it's chemically impossible for them to do so.

If I gave a "rating" for blue jobs based on a 0 to 100 scale with bare metal a one and plating with an inert metal as 100 I’d say.....

Factory hot blue--usually the same as Oxonate #7 and Dulite salts. 40 to 50 score.

"Charcoal blue"--- as done on old Colts, Winchesters, and S&Ws. 40 to 70 score.

Factory rust blue---- As done by Remington, Savage, Winchester, Marlin and others. 55 to 75 score.

Military rust blue----as seen on Lugers, Mausers, early Springfields, Krags, and almost everything else made between 1870 and 1935. 30 to 90 score.

English and European commercial rust blue--- 60 to 90.

Modern custom slow rust---- unknown yet but many show signs of matching the highest scores.

Specifically--- Angiers C-13 Swiss Armory slow rust, = 85 to 90.

Laurel Forge blue, Mark Lee slow rust, and G&H, Hoffman, and Baker acid-based slow rust. 80 to 90.

Belgium Blue Express and Mark Lee #2 = 80 on most steels--- 65 to 70 on nickel Winchester receivers.

These are my opinions based on looking and using and building a LOT of guns. There are other formulas that give equal scores.....some are secret and some are forgotten and some are being sold but I haven't tried them yet.

People that do rust bluing seem to find one solution that works for them and they stick with it.

There are two important secrets that can't be overstated-----
1) DEGREASE and keep it degreased.....
2) If you have a problem, 95% of the time it's because of the boil-out water. I know a man that trucked snow melt water from Oregon to South Texas for his rust blue.
If you have problems change water! Distilled water is not all that pure, either.

Jack,
I have used Birchwood Casey Plum Brown to blue several Mauser bolt shroud's after putting M-70 saftey's on. Boiling between coat's to turn it blue. How do you rate the durability of this against caustic blue?
One other thing I have wondered about. I have been told that the water from a dehumidifier worked good for boil out water. I never tried it because the water was running over aluminum. What's your thought?

RM--

I've used the Plumb Brown a couple times myself. It seems to never get *all* blue, but has a pretty good record for wear.

It's REALLY good for damascus, boiled or not.

FWIW - I do both types of bluing in my shop. Caustic and rust bluing. Its pretty hard to hurt yourself with rust bluing. Rubber gloves and eye protection take care of the dangers. Caustic can also be safe but you better pay attention to what is going on or things can get UNSAFE in a hurry. I keep several commercial rust bluing solutions on hand in case I run into a part that wont blue right. If your just starting out....go rust bluing and dont look back.

JBELK,

"From there you'll want to get the instructions from Brownell's along with some "express blue". You can learn how you screwed up in an hour with express blue what takes a week with slow rust."

Yes order it!

We were talking about "Express blue"??

Dunlap lists:
Sodium nitrate, potassium nitrate, MECURIC CHLORIDE, potassium chlorate, water and "spirits of nitre" FYI use ethanol instead of the last.

"Since nobody I know drinks the stuff and rubber gloves are standard equipment I see far LESS hazard in rust bluing on the stove, with professional results, at roughly 10% of the cost, than caustic salts bluing anywhere in the house .......and that was the question."

Here is the thing, you swab this stuff on hot metal and you get rust,..... fine. You also get a cloud of steam. Most guys are doing this on a jury rigged setup in the garage or kitchen stove. You invaritably inhale some of the steam. Remember how you felt bad after you used it and coughed up junk??? I did. This stuff contains mercury. Very bad. It is a cumulative nuero-toxin.

I have done it, so have you, doesn't make it a good idea. Most of us used to put lead shot and air rifle pellets in out mouth. We washed parts in benzene until or friend died of liver cancer. We now know thest things to be a bad idea. The idea is to live a long healthy life, I believe purposly inhaling mercury compounds is likely to throw a wrench in that.

This stuff is also dangerious to use, Harry Pope lost an eye to it.

Genuine slow rust blue, made with hydrochloric acid and iron is safer. Use that. I would think commercial express blue formulas would be less likely to contain mercury. Some advertize "no mercury" that is a good thing. Maybe the Laural Mountain stuff is safer. Use it? I have played a bit with formulas, stannious chloride and ammonium nitrate in water is a good express ruster. Maybe the commercial guys use somthing like that.

All I am saying is to consiter the cost and benifit. Making blueing formulas that contain mecuric chloride, traditional express blue, has a potental cost that is very high for a mininal return.

Happy blueing all.

Scot---

I don't deny that Dunlop list a formula with mercury in it.....and that's dangerous. There're dozens more formulas that don't have mercury and all but one that I've seen for sale since WW-II are mercury free. So where's the problem?

"Genuine rust blue" covers well over a hundred formulas....pick one that suits you.

I don't like the dual acid-based blues or the mercuric compounds because they cause after rusting and it takes extra steps (work) to avoid it....so I don't use it.

You can use Mark Lee #2 or Belgian Blue on the stove without hazard....and THAT was the point....not what Dunlop list in a fifty year old book.

I have a well tattered reprint of the Rifle Magazine article 'Metal Finishes for the Custom Gunsmith' written in 1977. I believe this article is still available from Brownells for free- it has several formulas for browns and blues...

JBelk is the Mark Lee Slow Rust also known as his #3 formula I've heard of (and not available from Brownells)? How would you rate the Neidner formula- worth the trouble to formulate some?

If I'm going to go through the same amount of trouble to rust blue, I may as well be using a formula that gives superior results...

What commercially available rust blue will give results in your highest categories and where can we get some?