How common is it to glass bed the barrel from receiver to forearm tip when bedding a sporting rifle? It seems to me that such a bedding would stiffen up a sporting contour barrel, perhaps increasing accuracy.

What are the + and -?

One downside I could see is lots of POI shifting on wood stock rifles if the wood were to swell (which could be prevented with good sealing and finishing).

Ks,

I don't see an advantage to full contact bedding of the barrel other than it looks really nice when done cafefully.

Wood tends to move around as environmental conditions change and steel likewise expands and contracts and shifts around as it is heated during firing. If the barrel is in full contact with the forend as these conditions change, the ensuing battle between the two will ruin accuracy.

For a sporting rifle, I would recommend free floating the barrel and sealing the stock to reduce warpage. I wouldn't just float the barrel enough to clear a piece of paper either, I would float the barrel well clear of any possible contact that may occur between a warped stock and a hot barrel.

Though the trend has moved towards the free floating barrel, some barrels benefit by having upward pressure applied near the tip of the forend, particularly thin, whippy little barrels. I would immagine that others might quote differing results with full contact bedding of the barrel and long term accuracy under hunting conditions, but I would suspect this is more rare than the norm...

Malm

ks,

I'm no gunsmith but I'll share my philosophy.

I want my hunting rifles free-floated, period. No pressure points on even the lightest barrels.

My theory is no stock is perfectly stable, regardless of construction method or material. Temperature changes alone are sufficient to dimensionally change a stock.

In view of this, if a rifle will deliver acceptable hunting accuracy with a fully floated barrel you have an adequate sporting rifle.

What is important to me in a big game rifle is not sub-MOA accuracy but one that will deliver the first shot to within about MOA of point-of-aim every time you step out in the woods with it.

It's not enough to have small groups, you've got to have your initial shots in the field impacting near point-of-aim regardless of conditions. That's why I don't like pressure points.

If you want a fully bedded stock,(I) would afterwards free float it. I am very aggressive with my floating. Not the prettiest but my accuracy pails to none. If the gun won't shoot better, you can begin shimming the fore tip with index cards too see if it helps. Some will shoot better with the pressure. Let the gun decide, not what you want it to be.

For a really stiff fore end,(sounds like sex advise) have a qualified stock man put a SS rod in the fore end. I have no experience with that and can't comment on it's effectiveness but hear of it being done.
All the best.

SAM

I put a laminated stock on a .35 Whelen with a #2 profile Douglas barrel. As is my practice, I free-floated the barrel. It only shot ok(1 1/2 - 2 1/2")-not good enough. Next I tried fooling around with forearm pressure by putting various layers of business card shims between the fore top and the barrel. No improvement.

Last resort, I fully bedded the forearm with acra-glas gel. I used no pressure on the barrel. Simply put the gel in the channel and pulled the barrelled action into the stock with the guard screws. When the excess gel had finished squeezing out I backed off the screws to zero tension and let things set.

Result - the rifle shoots around 3/4" with 225 gr Nosler Partitions and 250 gr Hornadays

I have a 270 Win and a .300 Win Mag both with light barrels and free floated and they shoot 1/2-1" groups consistently.

What does all this prove? Nothing except its fun to play around!

Ksduckhunter,
My normal procedure for building a stock unless the customer wants otherwise is to have full wood to metal contact on the forearm of my rifles. If they don't shoot properly, I consider free floating but I have never seen it to cure problems with a new stock. But that is not the intent on free floating it is to take into account those shifts with age that happen. With properly cured blanks and with good moisture sealing of the inletting and the stock, I can tell you that movement is a very rare occurrence. I can't say it doesnt happen because it does. But if I counted the times I had to do it on one hand I would have fingers unused. I do not free float for barrel harmonics, I feel for a hunting rifle it is a nit picking to the nth degree. And when I do I rarely see any improvement and what I do see is very small.

The full length glass will provide a very good water proof seal of the inside.

With all due respect to Malm, who has shown himself to be a knowledgable smith in a short time here, I have a very different opinion. I think that free floating is highly overrated in hunting rifles but it certainly is in vogue if that means anything to you. I think some of these things certainly creep over from the bench rest crowd and striving for that tiny group becomes all consuming. Then the rifle owner spends most of his summer (when they shoot at all) and do it off the bench looking for that mystical one hole group. The wise thing to do is shoot from hunting positions when practicing to know what YOU and the rifles accuracy can accomplish together. The error in the rifle and that in you are not additive directly. Your total error is the square root of the sum of the squares which greatly diminishes the value of the tiny groups.

I need to get off of this soap box, my wife will have me using the soap and put me on laundry duty. And you guys will be cheering for the peace and quiet.

[ 12-13-2002, 09:06: Message edited by: Customstox ]

I both agree and disagree with Customstox

If accuracy is the sole goal, then the barrel fully floats. If the action is properly bedded or the "glue in" is done right, then if it does not shoot, you junk the barrel. You don't even think about rescuing the situation with pressure points or whatever.

But for a real nice custom gun with good wood, then I would vote for non floating barrel. The ideal situation is one whereby the stock maker can bed the barreled action to the wood. That is, no epoxy to be found.

Those who think fiberglass is all stable, are not right. But then again it depends on what accuracy standards are being applied.

Mike

Popularity of barrel floating began in 1964 when Winchester changed their Model 70. They started using cheap poor grades of wood which was not dried properly thus it was not very stable and if they bedded their barrels properly the wood would walk around with the humidity and temperature changes ruining accuracy and zero. So Winchesters executives floated the barrels (huge ugly gap)and advertised it as a method to increase accuracy. Gun magazine writers were brain washed into believing it too and spread the word. The rest is history.

Bench rest shooters benefit from floating barrels because they are using short, heavy, and very rigid barrels, the harmonics are differant. Also when you use the very best barrels made, they normally shoot just as good floated or not. And if the barrel is floated it is more forgiving of inconsistant shooting techniques.

When a customer has me glass bed their rifle they usually request the barrel floated. I will always bed the chamber area of the barrel for better support. I will tell the customer if the rifle does not group to suit them, place shims of business cards for approximately 5 to 7 pounds of pressure near the tip of the forend and try it. If the rifle responds with better accuracy I have them bring it in with the shims in place and I can duplicate the support with glass.

You want to make sure the barrel channel is sealed well with stock finish of course but there is some other areas that most shooters over look. Seal the inleting around the magazine box and trigger, trigger guard, under the grip cap, and butt. Most factories do not seal the wood under the grip cap. The grip cap and butt is end grain which will suck up moisture like a sponge.

If you have decent quality wood and you seal every where properly you should not experience any change in point of impact or loss of accuracy due to bedding the barrel.

Like some of the others I have experienced good accuaracy with the barrel bedded full contact with little or no pressure.

One more comment for you guys on the floating side of the fence. I have observed many pre 64 Model 70 Winchesters shoot sub moa groups with the sporter weight barrels fully bedded. I think the reason is they had a good grade of properly dried wood, sealed and properly bedded to a high quality barrel.

Mel Forbes at Ultralight Arms did some research years ago in which he demonstrated that the range of harmonic oscillation of a barrel [range or degree of barrel whip] decreases if the barrel is bedded into forestock correctly. It appears that the trick is to have a stiff, very stable foreend [which Forbes achieves with carbon fiber, epoxy resin and kevlar]. Forbes analogizes a barrel to a tuning fork. If you rap the tuning fork on a hard surface, grasp it and run your hand out toward the end, there will be less and less range in the vibration as your hand gets nearer the muzzle. Justw as your hand dampens the vibrations in the tuning fork, so a properly bedded foreend dampens the range of oscillation in a barrel.

I suspect the reason forearm bedding works so well for Forbes [and not for many of us---myself included!] is that his stocks are perhaps alot stiffer and more stable than what most of us probably have.

Jordan

Often what I do is fully glass the forarm with a built in clearance. It seals the wood and maybe makes it a little stiffer. I simply place tape on the barrel where I want the clearance. Then put release agent on it.Then bed it full length. When you are done you have a built in free float and a sealed channel as well.

Chic,

Thank you. We're not all that different in our opinions. It's just that the customers I see, are victims of today's gunwriters. They want the latest, greatest most indestructible rifles made and they want them now, built in accordance with what they have read in the latest magazines.

My customers would rather spend their money on custom barrels, precision tuned actions and composite stocks than anything except maybe their beer. They are in constant search of the ever elusive 1 hole group. These are not benchresters but hunters and shooters and they want this degree of precision in their hunting weapons. These folks spend their free time meticulously working up loads and developing their shooting skills in order to better match the quality of the weapon they seek.

These folks think wood is for burning. They want materials that are static in nature, unaffected by anything nature can offer and are willing to spend the bucks to gratify their quest. I can spend days on end in an attempt to differentiate between what works and what is "vogue", but in the end it is their money.

I too have seen quality wood stocks with fully bedded barrels perform well, but my experience in getting factory produced sporting rifles to group well using factory components demands at a minimum, in my opinion, free floating. The factory produced wood stocks that dominate the wood stock market today are not of the fine, fully cured quality with which you speak. They are of poor quality, unsettled and will continue to shift for years. It is this type of stock that I speak of and in my opinion, is better served by free floating. At least initially.

Regards,

Malm

Thank you all. The comments from Chic Worthing and G. Malmborg have been particularly illuminating.

Malm, I can't disagree with anything you said, seems to be the same experiences I have here. I hope you did not take my post as confrontational. As stated you have quickly earned my respect and attention from the information you have shared here.

I often ask customers to wait on floating the barrel to see if bedding does them any good. Lately I have been diverting requests for bedding and free floating to a gunshop in town that has some very good employees that know what they are doing. A refreshing change. The store, in case anyone happens to be in my neck of the woods, is One Shot Firearms. Hard to find better people. And they have coffee and doughnuts or cookies every day. My car automatically stops there every I am trying to drive by.

Chic,
I've got to weigh in on this one. And for those of you who don't remember me, I'm a little long winded You're right 100% for your "beautiful rifle" customers! However, I am very hard on a gun. I prefer to skulk around on light rainy days, and stand during the "clear" spells. RIGID Synthetic stocks and freefloated barrels are the way to go FOR ME. Take em out of the dry house, and stomp around a few hours in the rain and usually 70+ degree temperature, and presto... swolen wood fibers. With floating, you can also dry the underside of the barrel each evening of an extended hunt thus hindering rust. (Assuming you've fully bedded the action).

Now, if I had one of those beautiful stocks, I would absolutely have you bed it with a metal to wood fit, and before it was sighted in, I would hog out nearly all the wood in that barrel channel and bed it for sealing and stability. No synthetic will ever be as beautiful as wood, but I'm just too chicken to take a work of art hunting.

On another topic you said: "The error in the rifle and that in you are not additive directly. Your total error is the square root of the sum of the squares which greatly diminishes the value of the tiny groups." Well, those are statistical values, and in hunting, it is the gross error of the two systems (man & gun) that we should be concerned with. You're only getting one "first shot", and if your rifle MAY sling lead 1" away from your point of aim, and you MAY sling lead 1" from your point of aim, guess what is going to happen when the trophy of a lifetime appears... you bet, you're heart will pound, your rest (if any) will be a willow sapling, and your rifle will throw lead right, and you'll yank that trigger throwing lead a little farther right.

Anything within budget and time allowance that can be done to make the rifle shoot better should. Then (as you suggest) shooting from field positions to get a realiatic idea of your capability is mandatory.

Well, that's my opinion, have a great weekend.

Safe Hunting.

Chic,

No sir, I did not take your comment as confrontational. I respect you as well.

Wouldn't it be a dull world if everyone agreed with everyone all the time. If everyone agreed there would be no favorite movie, favorite car, favorite color, favorite team or favorite beer. People would be out of work because there would be no need to compete. Without competition, there would be no progress. I am glad we can disagree at times. It keeps us from growing stale.

Regards to all,

Malm

This has been a good thread.

Ramrod 340 and I do it the same on factory stocks.

I bed full length (on stocks I glass, which is seldom), but with one layer of tape forward of the chamber area. That leaves .007 clearance around the barrel. I then put in .010 shims each side of the front sling mount like a "V" block. When it shoots right I glass in the shims.

If a stock is of good wood and is properly dried and sealed it's fully as stable, strong, light, and inert as those made from synthetics.

When I hear of "swelling wood fibers" and "I hunt in the rain so need a plastic stock" it makes me sad. The propaganda has been effective and that's a new development.

Remember, there has only been ONE factory rifle with a fully sealed stock: The very first Ruger Number Ones with numbered breech blocks. NO others.

I had one experience with a fully bedded rifle that has caused me to steer away from it for the most part ever since.
I had a BRNO ZKK600 in 30/06. Out of the box it was a pretty good shooter but I figured I could make it better. Since it had a screw in the forend i figured to glass it full length. When all was said and done it shot pretty good with one exception. If i shot a 5 shot group, the group would be round and usually right around 1 11/4 inches or so. If I kept shooting the rifle would continue to group in and around the original group. If I let the rifle cool down completely it would shott to the same point of impact and a good group. However, if I fired the group then just let the rifle cool for the time it took me to walk up to the 100yd target and back, the first shot out of the half cooled barrel would hit about 5 inches high. The next shot would be a couple of inches lower then the third shot would be back into the proper point of impact. I did this over and over until i was convinced that it was consistent then floated the barrel.
On the nicer rifles I fit the stock close on the sides but clear underneath except for near the tip where I provide for some slight pressure.
One European gunmaker I know says that the short slim forends he makes can be bedded full length since they are unable to affect the barrel much. I can't really dispute this. His rifles seem to shoot just fine. Regards, Bill.