I’m not trying to start anything here, but what features make the model 70 special. I have been watching the pre 64 prices and they seem to be very high for even the plain looking models. I can understand a high grade being priced high, but $1000+ for a plain jane model seems high.
I have seen some lower, but I have also seen many higher.

Is this a fad like the Harley Davidson motor cycles?

WHat makes the pre '64 special for me is that they are constructed ENTIRELY of forged and milled metal parts. Also, they were made in the USA, by USA owned company.

If you check and see what a USA made milled and forged CRF action goes for theese days, you will see that $1,000 for a pre '64 is not that bad a deal.

What Doug said. I've pretty well decided that if I want another rifle, it's gonna be a pre-64. I'll pay the money and I strongly suspect that with little or no extra outlay of cash, it'll be a shooter.
I'm a big .270 Win fan and I fought & fought a popular make & model .270 to shoot the way I wanted - to no avail. Fed up with all the nonsense, I got rid of it & got a pre-64. Shoots very well. As I said above, I'm tired of spending money on a rifle that I gotta fight with. No more. Bear in Fairbanks

Well, personally, I think they're a bit over rated. I'm not saying they're lousy rifles, just overrated. I have two pre-64s and they're nice rilfes. I just think they're not any better than the Mauser sporters I have. Yeah, I know. That's sacrilege to some. I like the M70 trigger and safety. I also have some post 64 M70s that are push feed and one Stainless Classic controlled feed. They're all nice rifles. Now I'll probably be flamed and hung in effigy, but I think the Remington 700s stink! I have a few of those too, so I think my opinion is relatively informed.
Paul B.

What's special about the Model 70?

Pick out one of your oldest friends and ask yourself the same question about him/her.

I've been using Model 70's for not quite 60 years. They've always shot well for me. Never let me down. Are familiar, and I like their looks too. Don't come on too roughly, are sturdy but not complete clubs like some others.

All in all, always ready to go hunting.

Just a good old friend. Others have their good points too, but I'm always happy visiting the woods with a Model 70 in just about any Winchester-chambered pre-'64 cartridge appropriate to the game I seek.

Id build something on a new M70crf before I did a pre64. That older m70 metal does not have the metalurgic integrity of the newer action and some pre64 are quite dubious in hardness-heat treat,and certainly can be a bit ragged in finish.
I am aware of custom modified pre64 actions that came up with different shades of bluing(on the same receiver) due to particular hardening techniques used by win.

Thanks for the replys.

Buck,

Well they are nice actions...but $1000 is way high.

I regularly see Pre-64s on here in standard calibers for $650-$750 and that is for a complete rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by Buck3:
I’m not trying to start anything here...
Is this a fad like the Harley Davidson motor cycles?

If you're NOT trying to start some shit, why the crack about H-D? Is it because they have been a FAD for 104 years?

Pre-64 Winchester model 70's were essentially hand made, hand fit rifles. Very expensive to manufacture. There were no CNC milling centers back then. They earned the reputation of being, "The Rifleman's rifle."

quote:

If you're NOT trying to start some shit, why the crack about H-D? Is it because they have been a FAD for 104 years?

I love motorcycles. I started riding when I was seven, and have owned several since then. I would also love to have a Harley. The reason I made the comparison to H-D is because there are several bikes that are more reliable, cheaper, faster, have more features and look better than a factory H-D (I know that is subjective), but people are buying them as fast as they can make them. I think a lot of people are buy H-D’s for nostalgia. This is what I was tring to find out about the m-70. Is it nostalgia, or is it better than the rest of the many bolt actions?

I do not want to buy a pre 64 M-70 for nostalgia sake because I wasn’t around pre 64, but if is truly one of the greater bolt actions I may have to have one.

Buck,

They leave me cold. I don't like the safety, nor the swept back bolt.

For my money on a custom rifle it will be a Mauser! Of course money being relative it would be cheaper to build on a M70.

Either way I prefer a Mauser.

Here is a list of rifles I prefer over the M70 and why.

Weatherby MKV Best safety (excepting the fact it's on the wrong side).

Mauser 98, best looking, and I love the thumb cut for loading cartridges.

Blaser R93 best safety (ok it's a decocker, but what is safer than that).

Remington M700 (and clones like the Howa, HS Precision, and such) I have never had a rifle that fed the 30-06 better. Ok yes it sucks for belted cartridges and little things like the 222.

Mauser 03, (going to hell for writing that one I am sure), but I love it!

The Pre-64, as well as the Classics have one major thing in common.......they looked good on paper.

The design is great for the most part, but the execution of said design lacks a lot to be desired in most cases.

The Pre's are typically very smooth in function and contain machined steel parts. These parts, regardless of the perceived nostalgia, were not machined all that well. Yeah....for their day they were done pretty well, with some years being better than others, but nowhere near what is obtainable in tolerances today.

The sad part, is the fact that Winchester's Classic actions had an opportunity to be machined and manufactured under much stricter and tighter tolerances, but were not. They failed to employ finishing and machining techniques, as well as QC requirements that would have provided the shooting public with a helluva deal.

The basis of the components were more sound in the pre's, but as mentioned earlier; the heat treating was spotty at best.

The classics had solid heat treating, but were stricken with cheap parts and out-of-date technology for manufacturing them. Couple that with a total nonexistent QC system, and you've got yourself a fair amount of work to get either one of them ready for a truely functioning custom rifle.

The last Pre-64 I bought was about 5 years ago and was a 1955 model......I gave the fella $250.00 and walked away with a very good deal.
I figured that it was worth about $400.00, but I'd be damned if I'd pay over $600.00 for any of them. They just aren't worth that in my book, but then again, I'm not a collector either. My rifles get shot and hunted with....They get reblued and refinished. They don't spend much time hanging on my wall collecting dust.

You'll hear a lot of people hoot and holler about how much more accurate the pre's are over the posts, and they' contribute that to better machining on receivers, but that has little to with the whole scheme of things. For whatever reason, Winchester decided to can anyone that worked there that understood how to chamber a barrel.

The Model 70 is just another second-rate attempt to copy the Mauser '98. Why anyone would pay a premium for that is beyond me.

Ditto Matt & Interboat .I will take a c ring mauser over mod 70 anytime to build

Now guys the Model 70 was just an "improved" Mauser 98. Now you may not like the improvemnts, but that is all it is and for a production rifle it is not all that bad. Comparing it to a custom mauser made the way you want it is silly because all you are doing is what winchester did when they designed it, improving the mauser the best you can within your perameters.


BTW Matt you better be posting here because my "improved" model 70 bottom metal is done

Dear Buck3:

I had five pre-64 Winchesters in calibers from 220 Swift to 30-06, standard and featherweight, made between 1949 to 1955 and sold them all. Now, I am hooked on 1898 Mausers, and agree with Mr. Williams that the machining was not well done in the pre-64 rifles that I owned, although it was slightly better on the 1955 manufactured one. Furthermore, I don't like the cone breaching system, because I think that it does not support the case head as well as actions that support the case up to the extractor groove. But this may not really matter, as many Model 70 owners will attest to. And I have not had any trouble with any cartridge that I used in any of my Model 70's.

Nevertheless, the triggers, safeties and barrels on the pre-64's were top notch, and they all were very accurate usually within 1 MOA. I usually paid $500-750 for them, although they were not collector grade. I refinished and used them.

My new CRF Winchester Model 70's were much better machined, especially an early production 270 featherweight that I stupidly sold. Again, I agree with Mr. Williams, some of the parts on the new CRF Model 70's were cheesy, particularly the two piece bottom metal. I know nothing about the heat treatment on the pre-64's.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

ditto cheesy Chris

Strange.......I bought a CRF M-70 magnum action for $350.....yes it was a real deal but if you're shelling out $1,000 for (even a pre-64) you're not much of a shopper.

If you're looking for the pre-64 with a 300 H&H length action then you might see that but it's really not more than a "worked up" Mauser.

Every make of rifle on the market will compare their gun to the M-70 pre 64, its the standard by which all others are judged.

I like the Mauser myself, but only after I turn it into a M-70 with a m-70 safty, add a new barrel, sights and clean the action and perform a world of magic on it at a cost that has become unbelieveable.

Right out of the box and/or with a bit of tinkering the old pre 64 M-70 argueably has more to offer than any other make of rifle.

Make mine a Mauser or a pre 64, I would own no other. My choice only, there are other options if one disagrees.

I've often wondered why none of the Winchester rifles that were meant for the accuracy crowd were built on the classic action when they reintroduced it? They were all push feed or CRPF, weren't they?

Buy a nice mauser action and install a 3-position safety and hinged floorplate. You will be way ahead in the game.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Every make of rifle on the market will compare their gun to the M-70 pre 64, its the standard by which all others are judged.

I like the Mauser myself, but only after I turn it into a M-70 with a m-70 safty, add a new barrel, sights and clean the action and perform a world of magic on it at a cost that has become unbelieveable.

Right out of the box and/or with a bit of tinkering the old pre 64 M-70 argueably has more to offer than any other make of rifle.

This is an instance where I believe folks should actually think through what Ray has said here, because I believe he is dead certain CORRECT.


Off a dealer's shelf in the late 30's, all of the 40's, 50's, and the first half of the 60's, there was really not much in the U.S. to compare with the pre-'64 Model 70 Winchester.

Do a little comparing:

Controlled Round Feeding? Mauser 98, Yes. Model 70, Yes.

Sporter versions available in the 'States, new? Mauser 98, well MAYBE, sometimes, until the war. Model 70, Yes, all the time before and after the war.

Three position safety? Mauser, Yes. Model 70, Yes.

Factory drilled and tapped for scopes? Mauser, No. Nodel 70, Yes.

Factory drilled and tapped for receiver sights? Mauser 98, No. Model 70, Yes.

Bent bolt handle for scope? Mauser, No. Model 70, Yes.

Safety useable for scope mounted factory rifles? Mauser, No. Model 70, Yes.

Shooter-adjustable trigger? Mauser, only with abrasive cutting tools, substantial knowledge, and some skill. Model 70, Yes, with a small wrench and screwdriver.


Yes, there were some commercial Mausers available from Mauser until the war. After the war, there were some J.C. Higgins built on the FN version of the 98 actions. there were also some Husqvarnas, and some S&L's on 98's, as well as Firearms International guns on the FN's, and some others like the Colt and Hi-Standard and Browning. But, there weren't a lot available before the demise of the pre-'64 M70, and they weren't in every corner store or gun shop. Most were importer-modified into sporters, not built by the Mauser factory as such. And if you needed a specific part, where were you gonna get it in rural areas?

That's exactly why the Sakos and the Remington Model 700s and the Ruger M77 had big available markets they were able to fill. When Winchester made the move to abandon the market it had filled with the pre-'64 Model 70, everything went up for grabs.

And those folks who had relied on the Model 70 with almost complete satisfaction for strength, reliability, handiness, parts, scope sights, etc., began squirreling away pre-'64 guns and parts they knew and trusted. Prices, of course, went up.

Over the years, Winchester managed to completely throw all that away, but it does not mean that the pre-'64 was a worthless POS or a poorly done rip-off of the Mauser. It was NOT. For the American hunter, it was a good gun...a better buy, all features and availability taken into account, than the Mauser was for most U.S. shooters.

Things may be different now, but they weren't then. I was there as were many others here, and we saw it. I once extensively collected Mausers AND Model 70's. I still have a few of both. And my remaining pre-'64 Model 70's have earned their place in my vault until the day I die.

If your milage varies, that's fine, but you don't have to try to prove it by dis'ing a gun that fully filled a need and a niche of the time.

James C,

Interesting observation, however, I believe you are looking at this from the wrong perspective.

Since the introduction of the CRF Classic action by USRAC, the CRF Classic action has been reserved for their middle price range and on up, models of hunting rifles. The Super Shadow, aka "Walmart Special", using the CRPF action, while a hunting rifle, was priced to compete at the lower end market. The "accuracy" rigs, are indeed CRPF or push feed, because I'm sure USRAC didn't see the need for CRF in somebodies prairie dog shooter. (And neither do I.)

If you are implying that the CRPF or PF action is intrinsically more conducive to accuracy than the CRF Classic, I believe I disagree. I think the reasons they were used in some models is a lot more pragmatic than that, and has more to do with pricing structure, pricing competition, etc. YMMV.

And I can't understand why someone would pay over $1000 for a M73 winchester when you can buy a new Marlin for under $400. Or have a custom Mauser made when you can buy a new Savage for less money and it will probably be more accurate.

My take on the Pre-64 M70 has not changed since this post of some time ago. Canuck and Atkinson have it right. No, it is not perfect. It is simply the best bolt action ever created for field use.

In recent months hereabouts, a complete, un-altered Pre-64 M70 action could be acquired for about 600 bucks. Anything resembling a complete rifle commanded at least $800.

The cost an action is, of course, peanuts when contemplating the cost of even a modest custom rifle. Anyone who quibbles about the cost of a superior action, then slaps a four-figure Euro optic on top of it, has his priorties seriously out of order.

The excellent search function of this board will turn up a wealth of information about the Pre-64 and comparisons with its later variants, Mausers, etc.

I have a pre 64 M70, just because of what I read on this gunsmithing forum.

I have lots of Mauser 98s.

I think that the 98s do better with some M70 like modifications:
1) Bent bolt
2) drilled and tapped for scope
3) modify or replaced trigger
4) 3 position safety
5) mag release button
6) Uncle Mikes sling studs
7) recoil pad

They all have the most beautiful shaped stocks.

IMO the pre64M70 has three main points of superiority over the 98 Mauser (1) much stiffer receiver because of deep side rails ... and of course no thumb cut as compared to the military Mauser receivers, (2) much faster lock time, and (3) underside of receiver much better shaped for solid bedding. So 70s, everything else being equal, will shoot better. The main point of inferiority is that the Mauser has better gas handling, M70 has a cone breech and no bolt sleeve flange. But if you are building a custom job these M70 flaws can be fixed.

quote:

Three position safety? Mauser, Yes. Model 70, Yes.

Factory drilled and tapped for scopes? Mauser, No. Nodel 70, Yes.

Factory drilled and tapped for receiver sights? Mauser 98, No. Model 70, Yes.

Bent bolt handle for scope? Mauser, No. Model 70, Yes.

Safety useable for scope mounted factory rifles? Mauser, No. Model 70, Yes.

I've read these kind of comparisons before, and I find them essentially meaningless. The implication is that the Mauser 98 is somehow inferior in design because of the modifications required to bring it up to 20th century sporting rifle standards. The Mauser was built for an entirely different purpose a couple of generations before the model 70 ever saw the light of day. It's pointless to try to put them on the same plane. I'm sure that if Paul had been given different specs he would have come up with something every bit as good or better than the M70.

To illustrate my point, Bayonet stud? Mauser, Yes. Model 70, No.

Alberta Canuck, I get your point that the Mauser takes a lot of work to make a decent sporter, and I hope I don't come across as a smart ass. I just don't think it's a fair comparision and I see it happen all the time. No slam intended.

Back in the 70's I was buying a shotgun from someone here in NJ when I spied a Win 70 on the wall. When I admired it, he advised me that he had a lawsuit pending for eye damage suffered from gas blown thru the bolt of that rifle. He further stated that his lawyer found a number of similar suits in progress, tho I don't recall how many.

Regardless of how obscure the gas hazard might be, my eyes come before smooth trigger pulls, tapped receivers, bent bolt handles and all that fluff.

Bud W

quote:

Originally posted by montea6b:

I've read these kind of comparisons before, and I find them essentially meaningless. The implication is that the Mauser 98 is somehow inferior in design because of the modifications required to bring it up to 20th century sporting rifle standards. The Mauser was built for an entirely different purpose a couple of generations before the model 70 ever saw the light of day. It's pointless to try to put them on the same plane. I'm sure that if Paul had been given different specs he would have come up with something every bit as good or better than the M70.

I agree with this....as a matter of fact, that was my point exactly. I find the Mauser an excellent rifle, and have never said otherwise. But, for it's purpose, which IS a different purpose as built and sold by its respective manufacturer, the Model 70 is also excellent.

And I am a little tired of seeing guys (not you) who don't have much experience with both, chiming in with something they have heard, or read somewhere, about how the M70 is a POS, or a poorly done rip-off of the Mauser and stating it as if it was God's own truth.

The Model 70 is no more a rip-off of the Mauser than the Lexus is a rip off of an 1885 Studebaker wagon. Both the Lexus and the Studebaker have a lot of common mechanical features and use similar rolling-wheel principles, but neither rifle nor car is a rip-off of something else.

The Model 70 was, and IS, an excellent hunting sporter rifle... The Mauser was a superb bolt-action battle rifle. It can also be made into an excellent hunting rifle, but at today's prices for labour and parts, it likely won't be any less expensive than a Model 70 which already has those features. The exceptions are older Mausers already converted by the importer, or FOR the importer prior to importation.

As to stories of eye damage, I have a little bit of experience with gun-related lawsuits. I know for instance of a poacher who shot himself in the ankle with a .22-250 while trying to unload a Ruger No.1 while sitting in the front passenger seat of a car on a dark country lane about midnight, with a cop pulling up behind him with the red lights on. So, what's he do? He sues Ruger, claiming a safety malfunction of the rifle. And Ruger settles!! So the guy won. But does that make the Ruger No. 1 a bad rifle, or a rifle with a bad safety? Not only no, but hell no! In my experience, very few guys who hurt themselves with a gun accept any personal responsibility for their injuries.

I've been around Winchester Model 70's all my life, and I have never had, nor ever met anyone who had, any gas flowback problems if they were using reasonable loads in good brass. And if they weren't, whose fault is that? (I have, however, had gas in my own face from two other makes of rifles, both my own fault).

Anything can happen with any rifle. None are fool-proof.

Mausers are good rifles. So are Model 70's...each for their own purposes. Those purposes CAN be made to cross, somewhat, like when we used Model 70's as make-do sniper rifles in the military, or when a military Mauser is converted to a sporter with all the bells and whistles.

Anybody is welcome to use whichever they want. That will never mean it is the only way for everyone to go, or that the selector of one way over the other is "smarter" than those who choose another path.

Will now kick my soap-box into the corner, with apoplogies for the length of all this....

I need to get me wanna them 1885 studebaker wagons!

quote:

Originally posted by interboat:
The Model 70 is just another second-rate attempt to copy the Mauser '98. Why anyone would pay a premium for that is beyond me.

YOU SO FUNNY! Not very helpful or informative.

quote:

The Model 70 was, and IS, an excellent hunting sporter rifle... The Mauser was a superb bolt-action battle rifle. It can also be made into an excellent hunting rifle

Amen.

I believe mausers were built into sporting rifles with lower bolt handles and telecopic sites in claw mounts making them an excellent hunting rifle,Before an m70 came to exhist.
I also believe the bow release trigger guard idea so much copied for m70 custom rifles, came from early mausers(1909model).
3pos. safety,somewhat overhyped/rated. Bolt on first notch is the safest simplest safety lever I know of.

But then you still need faster lock time, a safety for scope mounting, an adjustable trigger and forget low scope mounts for an original Mauser. Have you seen pictures of pre WWII german officers? They have long straight stiff necks. Where did they get that stiff neck you ask?? From shooting one of those high scope mount Mauser rifles with a low comb stock!!

While I really like Mausers, I have always LOVED a Model 70 Winchester, and have a soft spot for the Model 54s I have seen... basically for nostalgia...

I wouldn't pay the high price for a pre 64 Winchester, and make due with the ones from the 1980s to the 1990s that I have now.. but with Winchester not making them.. I will never get rid of them....

It is my favorite rifle, even tho I shoot a batch of other manufacturers products also...

quote:

What’s special about the Win.Model 70?

The fact that it has been discontinued