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How wide are these typically? (I know "typically" is a loaded question when it comes to custom rifles...) Would a piece of 1/2 inch key stock be a suitable starting point in terms of both width and material quality? I recently aquired a used mini-mill and was contemplating attempting a quarter rib using a chunk of keystock I already had, but it looks a little narrow. I also don't want to waste my time if the metal won't blue or has some other material property that makes it unsuitable. ...just in case my first try results in workmanship acceptable to mount on a rifle!  | ||
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Ok key stock is garbage as far as material goes. it's a step below 1018 crs as far as machining quality. As far as dimensions What type of rifle will it go on. and what sight if any will be mounted on it?? Usually 5/8" to 3/4" max You need to start with something just a little bit wider then the sight you will use they when you cut the sides at an angle of say 5 degrees the top will be the same width as your sight base. Believe it or not 4140 is the best stuff to use. from a machinist point of view. It's a good strong material & it cuts so much better then mild steel. I try to make everything I can out of 4140 unless the application is wrong. You can get a chunk fully annealed and be good to go. There's a mail order steel shop that sells this and it's very in expensive. www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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Thanks, that's the kind of feedback I was looking for. Do you have a link to this supplier you referenced? | |||
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http://www.speedymetals.com 4140 3/4"X 1" is $.85 per inch or 13.00 for an 18" chunk tack on a little for shipping and your good to go Thank J. Brown for this he turned me on to this place. I was paying way to much for steel before I found out about these guys. They will even supply you with certs if needed. My field of work requires certs on most steel www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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Please be advised that any steel stock that still has unmachined (from-the-mill) surfaces WILL warp and draw to some degree as the surface mill scale is removed. For this reason many smiths begin with either round stock or stock that has already been machined on all sides. The usual 1/2"-square stock from the neighborhood hardware store is a prime example of this problem, and it's surprising how many folks aren't aware of the warping tendency. For instance Brownell's used to sell 12" sections of stock machined with the Kimber dovetail, for bench fabbing of ribs & scope bases. The only problem was the warpage, and the warpage was so bad that they soon quit offering that particular item. The later Brownell's Kimber scope base material in shorter lengths was machined on all sides and gave no difficulty. For the same reason it's very advisable to first turn/grind all the mill scale off any barrel blanks before machining octagon. This is not nearly as big a problem as it used to be since all the major makers have long been removing the mill finish from their blanks anyway. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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J.D. I must disagree with you. Not all steel will warp. Mild steel in Hot rolled or cold rolled will warp like crazy. That hardware store junk is nothing more then 1018 or A36 a very low alloy steel and very susceptible to movement. Anything in the 10XX range of steel is going to warp like crazy even the high carbon stuff. That said good tool steel is a different story. CM steel (41XX series) is very stable and for the most part doesn't move when machined, ground or drilled as does mild steel. Or at least the movement is low enough to not be a consideration in any gunsmith's shop. In my shop it's a bit different. Hence my recommendation for 4140 Cold rolled. No mill scale and very stable, strong enough to as is for almost anything on a firearm www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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I've milled a quarter or two in my life, what I like is 12L14. It's a leaded steel and is free machining. You get very nice surface finishs and it's solf enough to use a scraper on when you need to fit it around a conor of a rifle recieiver. As far as wided goes, measure the width on the express sight you want to use and make it .03 to .05 smaller than the sight. You want some room for adjustment on each side of the sight. This material also either rust or hot blues very well. | |||
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I have to take issue with some of the statements here as to what steel warps and what does not. It isn't the grade of steel. 10XX won't warp or move, or do much of anything IF it were supplied in the same condition as alloy, or tool steel. The processing that the steel sees dictates how it will act, not the grade. Trust me, I make this stuff for a living. Steel sold in hardware stores is leveled before it is chopped in to little pieces for retail sale. Leveling takes a hot rolled or cold rolled steel that was in a coil (think 45000 pound roll of toilet paper), and takes out the memory, called coil set, so that the sheet will lay flat. In doing so, the steel is worked, and uneven residual stress through the thickness is the result. Residual stress then shows up when you mill, shear, drill, etc. as warpage and movement. Tool steels,and alloy steels are rarely leveled and are sold dead soft. Meaning the last thing to happen to them was a stress relief anneal, spheroidize anneal (makes all the carbides round, and the steel soft, great for forming parts), or a normalize anneal. In this case, the steel has zero residual stress, and will behave like a limp noodle with no movement. The difference is that the first group of more generic steels are not intended for machining, and the second group pretty much are only used where machining is likely. Steel products are tailored to the most likely end use if one is not given, or they are tailored for a specific end use if one is given. Bar products are your best bet for limited warpage because they go through very limited working after they are produced. Sheet steels, and plate can be subjected to quite a lot of processing, and may or may not behave as expected. Jeremy | |||
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Well, now I'm confused.... I was under the impression that leaded steel such as 12L14(which is what is used in leupold scopemounts) does not take rust blue very well at all. Here are a couple of quotes that led me to my belief that 12L14 is not the best to rust blue:
Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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Jason, The problem with leaded steels is that the lead that they contain is in the form of discrete lead particles. Lead is one of the few elements that is 100% insoluble in steel. The lead distributes as tiny particles throughout the steel. This is why it is great for machining. The lead particles do two things: lubricate tooling, and improve chip breakage. When these steels are machined the lead is in effect smeared across the machined surface which is how it provides tool lubrication. Unfortunately, now you have tiny streaks of pure lead all over the surface. Unless the blueing solution will dissolve the lead, the streaks will prevent the steel underneath from blueing. Hot blueing is aggressive toward soft metals, so leaded steels will hot blue reasonably well. Cold blue solutions are designed to attack iron, and luckily silver, but they don't have much affect on lead. The carding process just smears the lead around more on the surface. I have seen this issue in steam blueing operations with leaded and antimony added steels. If you want a steel that machines well, and will always blue, try to find a sulphur added free machining steel. It doesn't have the lubrication properties of leaded steel, but the chip breakage is designed in through the sulphur addition. These will not have any blueing issues other than general color match. Jeremy | |||
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farbedo: You've made my day! I have been a voice in the wilderness regarding the unsuitability of leaded stock for rust bluing. Thanks Duane | |||
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Well there you go. Never knew why the low alloy stuff warped when machined just new it did and how to compensate for it. Learn something new everyday. Thanks for the post And Farbedo's statement on 12L14 is 100% correct. Get it under a microscope and see for yourself. www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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But with all of the benefits of 4140 why would anyone go with mild steel or leaded steel for one-off custom parts? I can see using mild steel or leaded steel if we were talking about high quantity production, but not for a custom part. As I see it, benefits of 4140 are: -quality of the final part -strength of the final part -easy to machine -easy to blue And the only drawback is that it costs about $5 more for the material to make a quarter rib. Other than cost, mild steel does not offer any benefit over 4140, and leaded steel's only other benefit is a slight increase in machine-ability. BTW, I'm not a machinist. I'm just a hobbyist who is trying to learn. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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Cause you can't get 4140 at the hardware store and some believe Steel is Steel. I don't mean to generalize but there seem to be more then a fare share of hacks out there that call themselves Gunsmiths, Craftsmen, Machinists, etc... That could not tell why you should use an alloy steel let alone what type. Mild steel has it's place in the industry For a lot of parts it's just fine. But my personal preference is anytime I can use a high quality tool or alloy steel I will. The benefits far out way the cost www.KLStottlemyer.com Deport the Homeless and Give the Illegals citizenship. AT LEAST THE ILLEGALS WILL WORK | |||
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I try to use 4140 Ann whenever possible though I do use 4140 PH sometimes that an item may be subjected to high pressure or wear. Call it excessive if you want. I work with everything from 1018 to S-290 day in and day out. 1018 just dents, dings, and wears too easily. I think CRS 1018 would be more than adequate for a rib. It will move some with machining and depending on how you machine it. Again... 4140 pennies more considering the cost of the whole project. Nathaniel Myers Myers Arms LLC nathaniel@myersarms.com www.myersarms.com Follow us on Instagram and YouTube I buy Mauser actions, parts, micrometers, tools, calipers, etc. Specifically looking for pre-WWII Mauser tools. | |||
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Well said! While I was working with Mr. Stottlemyer he made two comments that stuck with me: "If we're making a custom part, we might as well make it look right." and regarding using 4140: "It might not be necessary, but it will produce the best quality finished product." Pretty sharp guy! Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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